I knew embarrassing threads like this would appear if we came top, just as I knew the embarrassing comparisons to football would be thrown in for good measure.

Championship finals/Grand Finals are the traditional way of deciding the league winners and the game needs the money generated by the play-off games. There's no point arguing that it could be a separate competition because that competition would slowly die off through lack of interest.

We came top knowing the rules, but it counts for nothing unless we win the Grand Final. Being consistent is one things, but for 13 years clubs have been gearing their preparation up in order to peak at this time of year. Those are the rules and rightly so, let's go and win the trophy rather than being precious.

The 'league' we have now isn't a proper league anyway. If you want to regard the league leaders as champions, you would have to have games against each team without the extra fixture thrown in that we have now.

And as I've mentioned on here throughout the season teams no longer go all out to win every game, they have an eye on the long term and the goal is no longer trying to finish top, but to ensure they go into the play offs in the best form and the best condition.

FPTP in Super League this season would have meant everyone below Wigan going through the motions for 6 months of the season.

FPTP & No Relegation = Nothing to play for, for most teams.

Quite correct.

I posted last season after Wigan finished top, that the real champions are whoever sits at the top after 27 games.
That view still holds good.
The play offs should be a separate knock out competition with first playing 8th etc. Maybe for the Sky Superleague trophy?
Why teams have to play off after 27 gruelling matches when every team has played each other at least twice, and then in a knockout formula is beyond me.
If Hull happened to win at OT, would they truly be considered the best team in the league, and henceforth, Superleague champions? No offence to Hull - just using you as an example.

Yet another person saying "well we've had it before" without any attempt to say [iwhy[/i that was the case in the first place. The playoffs were originally a fixture in league in this country because of the logistics, time and cost involved of arranging costly and timely travel to away fixtures across the pennines at a time when the players had full time jobs to work and transport was slow. This was the reason why it happened, and that is no longer an issue in modern times.

If you're going to argue for the playoff system being kept please at least give valid reasons, and there are some, 2 of which are
1) We don't play each time an equal number of times home & away
2) It's bloody good entertainment and is exciting.




And that's another valid reason in favour of the playoffs.

It doesn't alter the fact I find it difficult to justify the playoff system to people who are not already RL die hards. I've already had two conversations this morning where people have expressed to me what a joke it is that a team that finishes top of the pile now have to win a sudden death knock-out tournament to be deemed champions.

Rugby League - shooting itself in the foot commercially since 1896.

Yes, why not? If Warrington aren't capable of winning the Grand Final this season, it means they are not really suitable for the Champions crown doesn't it.

Being able to handle the pressure generated by the playoffs and Grand Final is exactly the kind of test that identifies the strongest squad in SL. If a team isn't up to that test they are not the Champion side they thought they were.

Can you explain then, why winning the Challenge Cup is looked upon as a lesser title than the main league title, because, to quote many fans (and I include people who have been trolling the Wigan forum too this year): "all you have to do is win a few games, not be consistent over a whole season".

My only problem with the current playoff format is that too many teams are involved. If Hull FC or Hull KR go on to win the Super League this year, then they will quite rightly be crowned champions as the rules allowed them to be so, but I would be embarrassed to proclaim my love of RL (for the first time in my life) to people who know nothing of the sport and want an explanation as to why the team that finished 8th were suddenly deemed champions.

Two separate competitions.....the league and the playoffs. Even coaches will say that from this point on, its a completely different competition and they are starting from scratch.

Well that makes at least 2 of us.

I must say I've read this forum for many years and you've always come across as one of the most conceited people on here. I'm sure you're a nice guy in person but I'm afraid the above post has only confirmed my opinion.

There are a number of positive aspects to the play-offs, which I didn't name one-by-one because I actually thought you'd done a decent job in your opening post ( ). Namely, these are:

- Creating an additional set-piece occasion in the GF which is vital for the finances of the game and supports RFL grassroots investment. The game puts RL in the spotlight nationally (although not nearly as luch as it deserves) for one day in the year in a way that a FPTP system almost never does.
- The play-off games generate excitement and additional revenue as mentioned, and although crowds drop off slightly from the weekly rounds (because season tickets aren't included), Sky figures are excellent at this time of year.
- The play-off system keeps the season alive for far more clubs and gives smaller clubs an objective and incentives throughout the season.

You should have explained to these people that it isn't a 'sudden death knock-out' competition - er, because it isn't. For some reason people seem to be embarrassed of our game's traditions in a way that fans of other sports never are. Maybe Wimbledon should be decided on a league basis, or the football world cup? After all, that would surely show the 'best' sides who had been consistent, rather than the result of a tie-break or a penalty shootout.

Shooting itself in the foot commercially? That's certainly a well-worn platitude on RL forums but what is a better alternative system? Super League attendances are as high as they've ever been for top-flight RL and certainly the game is in better health commercially than it was in the 80s and 90s (incidentally, when we had FPTP).

If we're completely honest, so many of us are so desperate to see Wire crowned champions for the first time in our lives, that after finishing top we wish that was it and we could celebrate properly without the fear of it not actually happening after all.

To finish top but then not win the final after so many years without the biggest honour of them all would be the equivalent of scoring a try under the sticks in the last second of a game we were four points down in, then slicing the conversion wide and having to settle for the draw instead of victory.

Finishing top is harder than winning a play off series, but as far as I'm aware - and I'm saying this from memory not from research so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I may well be - the only team to finish top and not reach the Grand Final were an injury ravaged Saints in 2005, and the only team to finish outside the top two and win it were Bradford from third the same year.

That suggests the odds are heavily stacked in our favour, and we all knew the rules at the start of the season, so lets go out and do it.

Spot on. I would contend that every winner of a Grand Final we have had has proved themselves worthy champions.

As a die hard Hull FC supporter, I was there on Friday of course and although disappointed that after 25 mins of battle from us in the end your class was their to see and you rightly finish as champions. I was pleased to be there to watch a champion team in action against a Hull team that are no mugs, albeit I do feel that our next generation of Halcyon days maybe just around the corner.
So my point is, .......What real recognition do you get as League Champions ?

Yes it used to be the big thing, and I do believe the "full course" truly decides the best team in the league. Yet as the RFL want the season to end in a blaze of glory we have now adopted the Oz style play offs which do indeed spread excitement through the game in a way Super League games perhaps do not. They have the ability to generate cash for the successful clubs and the league, and there is the Glory of the showcase grand final to put the Winners on a pedestal.

Because the "organisers" market their nest egg which is play offs and the grand final and not the "League Champions" it means this, one of the greatest of feats in our great game, is lost to History with hardly a mention. This I find so sad, and wrong.
Clearly the RFL do not show any sign of protest at the BBCs total ignorance of a performance such as winning a league where bodies are truly put on the line. In fact it appears they welcome the BBCs lack of coverage. Whether this is on the BBC Rugby League Website or the mickey Mouse Super League show, or BBC Breakfast, this feat goes without a mention. ( BBC Breakfast often showcase national sporting success- but never our sport)

I believe this is wholly wrong. I believe the winners, should be given a big mention on the BBC and that prize monies should be raised to recognise the feat that it is. OK the Grand Final is now the main event but the League Champions should not wallow in media obscurity without barely a mention.

Yes you do as champions have the reward(and rightly so) of an easier passage to the Grand Final. but it guarantees you nothing and that just can't be right. We should celebrate our League champions.
Their should be greater recognition of a fantastic winning season were you are the best. But that may all yet be forgotten as some other side may yet be crowned at Old Trafford. It is unlikely to be us from 8th, but it's possible.
However it could very easily be someone else.
I do hope you go on to take the trophy, but of course you may yet be bridesmaids who like other champions before you simply can't be found that easily in the record books.
Should winning the championship be marketed better by the league ?
Should then the BBC and Sky showcase the champions as true league champions are in football and Union ?
Should there be a greater financial reward for the League champions ?

You're entitled to your opinion - I prefer to say that I argue my points of view with clarity and reasoning, just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me conceited, but whatever, I won't lose any sleep over it.



There are, and I will never argue that there aren't - however, my key concern is to see RL grow and the only way in which to do that is to get more people through the turnstiles and spending money at the clubs (which includes merchandise revenues as well as turnstile clicks). My frustration is born from the fact that I continually face the same problem year on year that people see the main competition with derision, and yet are happy to get behind the idea of the Challenge Cup (and I have convinced many of the years to come to cup games, less so SL games because they see them as superfluous as the regular season league games simply aren't that important).



A system which the sporting public of the country you're in can get behind. Playoffs are not controversial in Aus or America for example, the current Super League system would seem to be perfectly natural in these countries. I challenge you to convince the sporting public of GB&I that a team finishing 8th being crowned 'league' champions is morally justifiable, you will find it incredibly difficult.

Quote: just_browny " Super League attendances are as high as they've ever been for top-flight RL and certainly the game is in better health commercially than it was in the 80s and 90s (incidentally, when we had FPTP).'"

And yet we still have clubs going in to administration. All is not exactly rosy in RL, we are currently pandering to the wishes of Sky in order to generate more revenue through the TV contract, because, let's face it, that's the easier money. Football isn't rich simply because advertisers and sponsors want to throw money at it, these people throw money at football because it has a huge target audience for them. Rugby League needs more people through the gates, Warrington's attendances are up right now, but that's on the back of success, I wonder what our crowds will be once we return to mid-table standing or worse?

Let's face facts. The play offs generate money from increased interest throughout the season - Hull KR V Cas would have been meaningless instead of a nail biter if there wasn't a defeat to Catalans next week on offer to the winners for example - increased fixtures of importance after the season, a second major showpiece to add to the Challenge Cup Final, and TV revenue.

Money talks. The play offs are going nowhere. Now let's go out and win them like most teams who finish top do.