Pretty much spot on, Dita's.

As much as Wane is a gorilla, he's a successful gorilla. I don't want us to follow his tactics, but he's done it.

As I alluded to earlier in the thread, we need to toughen up, and maybe (to use an Aussie vernacular) "get a bit of mongrel about us".

As much as I hate to say it, we ARE a flat track bully.
Yes, this is the first time in five seasons that the Pies have beaten us at their place. It shouldn't have happened, but Wane reacted to the situation. We stood still, as we did in the GF.

As I type, I've got the Arsenal game on in the background, and we're becoming like them.
We're OK in beating the RL equivalent of West Brom (like Arsenal do), but when we've got a comfortable lead against a big boy, and they start to fightback, we go into our shells.

Come on, Wire. HARDEN UP.

What's most disappointing is that, on Thursday night especially, we should have knew what was coming - In the same way that Wane's half time team talk would have been very predictable, then, you would like to think, so should Tony Smith's have been.

Surely Smith would have warned them that Wigan would come out fighting, looking to needle Wire, basically put some fire into both the game and the crowd??...... If he did warn them, then the reaction he and we got was very timid and very disappointing - Once in a Grand Final, with so much at stake and nerves fraying, is pretty much forgivable, but again, 12 months later, against the same team, suggests a problem a bit deeper than the misfortune of losing a couple of players. It suggests a mental problem, the type that used to dog us back in the days of the 'Saints curse'.

I know its only twice against the Wiganers, but they have been the types of defeat that are difficult to just shrug off, simply because it gives Wigan an extra belief even when they are seemingly beaten.

It pains me to say, but I don't see us beating Wigan (or Leeds for that matter), if we meet in the forthcoming play offs.

I said that, the first ten minutes after half time was all about standing up to them, maybe scoring if the opportunity arose. We failed to do that, then the kicking game went ary.


Supposedly the ruling had been amended earlier this year following the grand final to make the offence less specific so you couldn't argue that the knees being taken the natural way was a cop out.

Attacking the standing leg of a tackled player is dangerous, take someone's legs out, they fall backwards, with some one around their ankles. Two fellas weighing them down on top, it's a very awkward fall potentially. Nothing natural or safe about it.

That's the thing. Smith (to me) seems like a bit TOO much of a nice bloke.
He's the kind of geezer that you'd go for a pint with, and enjoy his company.
Wane, on the other hand (again, to me), seems like a knuckle scraper, and if it wasn't for RL, he's probably be shuffling round the streets of Wigan in a 1990's shell suit, glowering at everyone, and then lumbering into The Moon Under The Water on a Monday morning with his "pals".

Again, we need to growl more

Maybe we do need to add a bit of steel gauntlet to our silk glove, but the fact remains that if Ben H had remained on the field and Monas hadn't thrown [ithat[/i pass we'd probably have won.

I do agree, however, that on a few occasions now there have been extended breaks in play and we have mentally switched off. That is a habit we need to address because it is symptomatic of lack of mental toughness and I think that is the crux of our problems. Everyone knew Wigan would throw the kitchen sink at us on the 2nd half resumption, and I'm sure TS did and warned the players accordingly, but we failed to react and handed the initiative to them.

It's lack of leadership on field, I'd be going with the model of a leadership team next year, 5 players in the squad with the responsibility for bollocking and geeing up people, you'd like to think players would do it as a matter of course, but it appears not so.

We'll agree to disagree on that one morrissey

'"

The fact that Les Boyd as assistant was in the dressing room as well probably made for some, errm colourful half-time chats, but you're right it invariably worked! Of course, in Cullen, Mike Greg, Bob jackson etc. we also had plenty of players on the pitch not averse to laying the law down to colleagues.

Maybe it's something in the psyche of English sportsmen that they need a verbal pasting now and then. Using football as an example, Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough, Jose Mourinho, Kenny Dalglish etc. were not exactly shrinking violets; you don't achieve continued success at the highest level by ruling with fear, bullying players or screaming endlessly but the results of that quartet speak for themselves.

In what way have I been hypocritical? I've quite plainly stated that you either believe one or the other and don't pick and choose according to which shirt they are wearing. My view is I like the enforcers in the game whether they be MM, Westwood, Morley, Skerrett or anyone else and regardless of whose shirt they are wearing. In my opinion they add to our game and the sports folklore. Hope that's clear enough for you.

As for the last sentence; you do realise that these are open forums, don't you? You also realise that the topic I was replying to in this instance (yours) was about a Wigan player? You also realise that the two teams had just played each other? If any of those points are confusing you, just let me know and I'll explain the principle of free and open discussion in a democratic society for you. I'm sure you'll find it illuminating!

Point taken Yed and I respect your opinion on this. I don't necessarily agree but it's a fair viewpoint...

That was exactly my point though mate. The examples from Thursdays match were not 'thuggery' as being described. Unlike the Westwood one they were the type of thing that happens in absolutely every game from every team, including yours. There was a late challenge (not high or shoulder btw) and a perfectly legal challenge as third man in (not a cannonball challenge as being claimed) and this has been further highlighted by the fact that neither incident was subject to a disciplinary. That's why I and others chose to contrast it with the Westwood offence in the GF. It's certainly not the only offence from Warrington players (unless you're trying to claim that no Warrington player has ever put in a late challenge or a legal third man tackle, of course!), just one that illustrates the difference between playing the game tough and to it's limits and outright 'thuggery' if that's the term you wish to use. Also, for my own part, I was trying to show the overreaction given that most of the posters complaining about MM didn't post to condemn a FAR worse incident when it was from their own player. I thought they were both valid points worth making. Most, if not all, teams have players who walk the line. Westwood, MM for us, Ablett for Leeds and so on. It's part of the game and (imo obviously) long may it continue!

In an effort to get back to the original question, the 2 reasons we lost it were Wane's half time team talk and a THAT pass.

All this stuff about Mickey Mac this and SOL that.....if we had come back in that manner then we'd have been chuffed to bits. Hopefully the TS mantra of learning through defeat will pay dividends in the Play Offs where we might show some over due bottle

NTW

hypocritical
/ˌhɪpəˈkrɪtɪkl/

adjective

adjective: hypocritical

behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.



Examples

adjective :

1. of the nature of hypocrisy, or pretence of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess:
"The parent who has a “do what I say and not what I do” attitude can appear hypocritical to a child."


2. possessing the characteristics of hypocrisy :
"Isn't a politician hypocritical for talking about human dignity while voting against reasonable social programs?"

I think both examples fully illustrate why your post regarding Boyd and McIlorum are hypocritical. You pretend to abhor the 'dirty' play of one whilst quite obviously delighting in that of the other. Care to apply the same to my posts?

Sorry for the above post keeping it off(ish) topic for longer than ideal. Couldn't agree more with your post.