Or at least sent us on our way to doing so? I know no one moment has to define to the rest of the game, but sometimes it's hard to come back from. For 2013, I think that moment before half time where Monaghan went off injured and they scored from the resulting scrum. I think had we not let them in right there Wigan wouldn't have gotten the belief to turn the tide.

2012, I'm not sure we did anything particularly wrong, I think Leeds just have been there so many times that they knew to bide their time and take the chance the second it came to them. We were in it with a mere 10 minutes to go and then when Ablett got over our heads dipped slightly, Hall's try was just superb and defending that was slim at best.

The decision from Smith to go with a full bench of forwards without having enough backs in the 13 to to cover if we lost one.
Put more simply Smith's decision to leave out Brett. Having either Brett or his replacement Ratchford on the beach, no we question we would have battered Wigan out of sight.

I don't hold Wigan responsible. They identified taking out a back would screw us up. Target Ratchford legs.
There was a moment in that game after that point where Briers was so shell shocked he packed down at second row, at that moment all the air I had left in my stomach left me with a deflated groan. The team and coaching staff were in total disarray with no answer.

IMO. I would say it was Tony Smith's biggest ever clanger and he knows it. He's never done that since. At least he seemed to have learnt from it. If we ever make another GF under TS, I believe that we make a better fist of it over 80 mins.

I always think about when Monaghan delibratly tried to put Sini out of the game and failed. I will never forgive Mick for that dog act.

Hogwash 2/10

100% he did.

2012 was when Briers chipped short for Joel on the last, which pinned us in our end on the next set and we lost the momentum a little. Leeds scored minutes later.

2013 was the Monaghan injury. The whole thing. Massive loss for us, long break, shift in momentum. Everything from the Wigan halves up to that point was awful, passes behind Charnley twice wasting chances. That break calmed them down, and everything from then on stuck.

The inclusion of Chris Riley in the squad on both occasions.

Against Wigan ,ran out of subs & injured players had to come back on. Carvell & Harrison should not have needed to play on even on the wing. Sadly problems like that are bound to happen when some teams are allowed to use thuggery to get results.

I could feel a loss coming in 2013 as soon as Joel didn't get up so close to our line, I knew Wigan were going in off the following set. But what cost us the game (for me) was the loss of Ratch.

Can't remember too much of the 2012 final but I don't think there was any key moment that lost the 2013 final for you. You had a purple patch of 10 minutes where you scored three tries but other than that we were dominant throughout. Aside from the obvious age issue I think your left fringe defense (Atkins and Riley) was a problem. Charnley and Goulding scored a try each against them and I remember Goulding bombing another two. The injuries won't have helped but I don't think they were the difference. Particularly Ratchford's as we were well on the comeback by then.

I'm more concerned about the moments that could cost us a shot at this years Grand Final.

In the Wigan GF not long after we scored the 3rd try in the first half we got a penalty and elected to run it instead of taking and easy 2. We made an error on the 2nd or 3rd tackle and coughed up possession...Wigan went up the other end, Joel Monaghan got injured and Wigan scored right before HT.. (Lack of Finals game smartness)That gave Wigan renewed belief and Vigour, Then the Hansen Canonball tackle on another of our strike players pretty much ended our hopes.

This is similar to my recollection.
Everyone talks about Monaghan's injury, but Wigan were already on our line when that incident occurred.

I watched the Final back (well, half of it!) some weeks later and I seem to recall Ratchford giving a very lazy and poor forward pass at dummy half about 30 or 40m from our own line.
I've always thought that to be the critical turning point in momentum.

What he said, i remember at the time i said we should take the 2, it was close to half time and we had them on the rack,anyways if and buts dont change results.

In any knock out game every point should be taken when offered, you squander the points you squander possession!