Just picking up on Dawsons post on the Ashes thread. Who do you count as your sporting hero?

Just two of mine...

Ian Botham - totally unique, full of talent, could deliver under pressure and was a totally unmanagable maverick. Could devastate teams with bowling and batting, although his bowling was statistically his strongest point. He still holds the record for the highest number of test wickets taken by an England player, at 383. As for batting, who can forget the 3rd Ashes test in 1981 when Botham scored a first innings 149 no against all odds in an innings rated by Widsden as the 4th best ever.

Stephen Roche - Winner of the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and World Championship in 1987. Only the 2nd cyclist to do that. Often had to ride against his team due to team orders, yet still won. Also had the balls to complete a 70mph+ descent in the Giro with a broken front fork.

Isn't there a touch of stigma with Roche about drug use? Lots of allegations, no charges though?

Mike Gregory and Emlyn Hughes for me.

Yeah they relate to EPO and the Carrera team in the early 90's. Lot's of allegations but no charges. Roche always strongly denied the charges but never sued Irish sports writer Paul Kimmage for the inferred allegations in his book, despite threatening too.

Roche was often the victim of slurs, usually from the Italian press. Carrera (an Italian team) desperately wanted Visentini (an Italian) as the No1 rider. Famously during the 1987 Giro when Roche was 15 minutes a head of the field on a climb, the team boss ordered that the rest of the team (domestiques) should form an attack to chase him down which is totally against normal procedure. Roche was reported to have said to the team boss "make sure they keep something under the pedal, cos when they catch me, they're gonna need it". They did as Roche went on to win the Giro, then the Tour De France and prove to be the last time Carrera would win either.

From the ashes thread:

My sporting hero's are Tim Henman and Ashley Giles.

Not a great deal of talent but they both maximised what they did have.

And to pre emp the Henman backlash:

Henman was a class act for a weedy bloke. He was in the top ten year after year. He was number 4 in the world on 2 seperate occassions. 6 grand slam semi finals (against Sampras, Coria, Federer and Ivanisovic i think) and won 11 tournaments including the Paris masters where he beat all the top player in the world at the time.

So i think he deserves some credit for his achievements

Just developing the thread further - who is the greatest sportsman of all time?

Mine is Don Bradman, with a first class batting average of 99.94 in all tests stands iconic against all who have played the game. No other player in the game has averaged above 60 (after playing 20 tests).

There is a really interesting statistical analysis on Wiki concerning the standard deviation of his achievement (batting average) compared to the mean of his peers.

Sportsman, Sport, Statistic, Standard Deviations

Bradman, Cricket, Batting average, 4.4
Pelé, Football, Goals per game, 3.7
Ty Cobb, Baseball, Batting average, 3.6
Jack Nicklaus, Golf, Major titles, 3.5
Michael Jordan, Basketball, Points per game, 3.4

TYPICAL ENGLISH REPLY TIM HENMEN A HERO ? DONT DOUBT HE WAS GOOD BUT ITS THE SAME ENGLISH THINKING BEING SECOND BEST IS BEING A HERO ! NO! WINNERS ARE HEROES!

Do you mean heroes? or Heros

BUT WHAT I SAY IS TRUE THIS COUNTRY SETTLES FOR SECOND BEST AND PRAISES IT

Heroes. I made a typo which has now been corrected.

Completely agree on Bradman.

In most sports the argument would go that he wouldn't have got half as good stats in the modern game. In cricket its the opposite, I wonder what Bradman would have averaged against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh?

Greatest sportsman of all time? Jesse Owens?

I was going to use the word; adversity, but I don't think that comes close to what he had to contend with off the track. A calculated scheme to create a political pawn, he let his ability do the talking and brought a propaganda machine to a juddering halt at the same time.

Picked up a few medals too. His haul of golad medals taking nearly fifty years to equal.

Good call if we are bringing in other considerations rather than just sporting achievement.

Exactly. This is a batsman who averaged 201.5 against South Africa. If he played the teams you mentioned he probably would still be batting now.

That is when we open the cupboard with the tins of subjectivity in it.