So who do you think is going to kick on in 2017 ?

Declan Patton might be the favourite for quite a few posters. He certainly put in 110% effort and was busting a gut to impress at the back end of the year. He has got Gidley and Briers to fine tune his game and the lure of a certain place at HB next year. Plus he has got a decent build to withstand the knocks and mischief he is likely to encounter, and is an accomplished goal kicker to boot. Add in that little bit of arrogance that a lot of the best players seem to have and he seems to have it all. Or...are we looking at another GOB, with not quite enough talent to make the very last jump ?

Sam Wilde and Joe Philbin didn't get a lot of game time last year (11 and 8 games), whereas TS normally seems to let a youngster have a string of games to make a claim for a place. I thought Philbin looked very strong in some of his games, but he was only on the pitch for short bursts. Of these two players, I would say Philbin looked the more promising, but he has very strong competition at both prop and BR. Sam Wilde has a similar problem. He has a very good turn of speed for a forward but I am not sure he did enough (for me) to stake a claim for a future spot.

Jack Johnson had a long spell of injury and played only 3 games for the seniors. With Ratchford out for 3-4 games at the start of the season I assume TS will take the opportunity to play him at FB and see what he comes up with. I would say he is fairly steady under the high ball and can make reasonable ground running the ball back. For his size, he is a good tackler, but his real strength appears to be in broken play where his speed can cut the opposition to pieces. He seems to have a reasonable opportunity of getting the FB slot as Ratch can play in the 3/4's ( well, nearly everywhere really ), and he is still only 20. But I fancy he needs to have a real dig in his games this year otherwise he might find himself sidelined again, since we now have such a lot of strength in depth.

I am not entirely sure TS did Harvey Livett a great favour by saying he was 'sensational' in the Widnes friendly. Since then Harvey has had a spread in LE and then been tipped as the man to break through from Wire in 2017. That is a lot of expectation lumped onto his young shoulders. I have seen a lot of him in the U19's where he scored 11, 18 and 22 tries respectively in his 3 years. He has an 'urgency' about his play that you associate with a seasoned first team player, and of course he is big and strong, difficult to stop near the line and pretty uncompromising in the tackle. He is not particularly fast (a la Currie) but in any case prefers BR to the SO and centre positions he has been asked to play in the U19's. I suppose his drawback is the fact we already have a 3 mile queue for BR places. It would be great if he could come straight in at centre, but whilst he certainly has the handling skills and timing of the pass, I am not really sure he has the guile to play there. But with the ability to play in several positions plus his goal kicking skills, I fancy he has a real chance of establishing himself in the first team. Perhaps Jack Hughes may find him breathing down his neck in 2018 ?.

Morgan Smith has still got a year left in the U19's despite playing 7 games in the first team last year. I can not decide whether he is an 'early maturer' that is likely to plateau out, or if he is going to go on and become the HB pairing with Declan Patton in 2019. Great ball handling skills, decent kicking game, very good goal kicker, very good game awareness, can fashion a break for his runners, but a little on the small size ? Too early to judge I suppose.


Thoughts ?

Regarding D P I don't see him anything like GO'B, when I've watched Dec in reserves games he is very vocal, he carries on the way he is now and as you say learning from Gidley and Briers he is deffo one with a bright future and the one to lead the team around the park.

Harvey Livett I've liked for a long time and for me as been unlucky to get a go in the first team,maybe this will be his year to get that chance,he also is a good goal kicker.

Philbin and Wilde, always thought Philbin should of got more chances, always thought he done well when he was on the pitch but was often not picked the following week. As for Wilde I still don't see him being big enough yet for BR more like a centre.

As for Smith tbh I've not watched him enough but I do agree he is on the small side,is he smaller than Burrows?

Smaller than Burrow's what?

I would really like to see Toby King kick on this year and establish himself at centre and we certainly need more from that position. He is still only 20 and a year younger than Declan Patton and is definitely big enough at 6ft 3'' and well over 14st.
Also, I can't recall when we were as well off for good quality goalkickers - Gidley, Patton, Livett, Smith, Ratchford and even Westwood and Westerman. Might be important this year especially as Wigan are struggling to come up with a recognised goal kicker.

A very comprehensive list Charlie.

All the players mentioned have a chance to make an impact this season, whether it will be career defining or not will IMO depend by and large with the possible exception of Patton on the fortunes of others. By that I mean we are better off in the C/BR than anywhere else as can be seen by the players mentioned and also the possibility of more game time for Benjamin Jullien, he might want a 'go'?

Good post Charlie

It certainly has been a bumper crop come through these last couple of years al a Wigan, just hopefully now they can all kick on a fulfil their potential

The academy side with the kings, Johnson,Wilde,Philbin and Dec was the best academy side I have seen and were unlucky in the Grand Final against Wigan

Toby king,Dec Patton and Jack Johnson had a real understanding and were exciting to watch whilst Sam Wilde and Joe Philbin did the donkey work but still have good handling and rugby skill set

I am not surprised to see them all starting to come through in the first team, I am surprised that Harvey hasn't made his full debut yet but there were some mumblings last year about attitude,work ethic and Briers made a bit of an example of him but after watching him at Widnes his debut can't be far away

Dec has always looked classy and has got that bit of arrogance you need but sometimes lost concentration and looked frustrated if things weren't going his way but his attitude last season and becoming a father has made him grow up and show maturity,if he keeps progressing he will be first choice in the next couple seasons

Sam is steady but needs to be more dynamic, he is safe carrying the ball and in the Jack Hughes mould and has probably made more first team appearances than he thought he might do at this stage but TS obviously trusts him

Joe must wonder what he has to do get a run in the team, always does well at the line and puts a shift in, definitely deserves more minutes this season,strong & powerful runner and always enjoy watching him play

Jack is an explosive and elusive runner with a real rugby brain, he is very quick in mind & foot, one game I watched I think he was in his first academy season he left Dom Manfredi for dead, like Charlie says he is devasting in broken play and is learning the positional side and finer points of the position, big season for him

Morgan came with a big price tag & reputation, I think he has found it more difficult than he thought in the academy,reserves and first team but there are glimpses, attitude has been mentioned but like Dec with an arm around him I think he can be a player

I think we have a strong nucleus of talent coming through & that can only be good for the future

I had forgotten all about him. I suppose the Rochdale match might show us how he has developed over the close season.

Remember this happening in 2014? Three of the former international players have already left (Brunt, Fox and Moore) and the other three have not been offered full-time terms as of date. The question is are the players they are bringing in from elsewhere (another two this year to my knowledge, one from Leeds and one from Widnes) better than these players and why are the club unable to bring through locally produced prospects? What is the disconnect? www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/spo ... ing_style/

Remember this happening in 2014? Three of the former international players have already left (Brunt, Fox and Moore) and the other three have not been offered full-time terms as of date. The question is are the players they are bringing in from elsewhere (another two this year to my knowledge, one from Leeds and one from Widnes) better than these players and why are the club unable to bring through locally produced prospects? What is the disconnect? www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/spo ... ing_style/

The old perennial subject of "the future's bright look at the youth coming through". We have this every year. The vast majority end up in the Championship or lower.
I mean are we really suspending disbelief to such an extent where we think the likes of Wilde will make a top SL player?

Quote ="mark_m" The question is are the players they are bringing in from elsewhere (another two this year to my knowledge, one from Leeds and one from Widnes) better than these players and why are the club unable to bring through locally produced prospects? What is the disconnect? www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/spo ... ing_style/'" \ You have to look at who recruits them and looks after them on a day to day basis.

Quote ="mark_m" The question is are the players they are bringing in from elsewhere (another two this year to my knowledge, one from Leeds and one from Widnes) better than these players and why are the club unable to bring through locally produced prospects? What is the disconnect? www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/spo ... ing_style/'" \ You have to look at who recruits them and looks after them on a day to day basis.

I think if you look at any sport 'pyramid' you will find exactly the same situation. In order to get to SL standard you are looking at that small triangular bit at the very tip. For Wire as a top four side, the triangle is even smaller than that. So it's not surprising that most of our scholarship intake doesn't make it through to become Warrington players.
But if you are an Academy coach at a SL club do you start with the attitude that the 'future is not bright' ? How do you summon the enthusiasm to inspire your charges such that they reach their potential if you start out with negative thoughts ? If you are a teacher in a secondary school can you afford to think 'none of this lot are going to amount to much'. Even worse for an inner city school with a catchment encompassing a deprived area, where you have to re-define the meaning of a successful outcome for your pupils. When she visits her local sports club does Jessica Ennis start by telling her eager young athletes that they only have a thousand to one chance of even going to the Olympics ?

I think if you start out with negative thoughts in any type of job / sport / project, you are doomed to failure. The people that inspire us are those who overcome adversity to achieve their goals and who have the boundless enthusiasm that they can pass on to others. If we are realistic, the stats for our current crop of youngsters are not good - only 2 are likely to make SL from the scholarship intake, that probably means only one for our requirements. But you surely have to be optimistic that we are going to unearth an England standard player, or perhaps 3 high quality 1st 17 from the same year - or whatever floats your boat. Otherwise we will end up with little enthusiasm for anything in life, apart from running a nice hot bath and reaching for the razor blade packet - only to find of course, that somebody else has used the last one.

Great post Charlie spot on

So looking at those statistics a pool of 12 SL clubs will be lucky to find 24 half decent players within their ranks.Hardly enough for a decent squad at one club & with the lack of overseas quality i think our game will have to lower its sights ,or at least us fans will.

If a player's career is from 19 to 31 that gives 12 squads of 24 academy produced players. That would be brilliant but unlikely.

I'm looking forward to seeing Savelio... reckon he could have a cracking season.

Outsiders view. I think Patton is plenty ahead of where GOB was at Warrington however GOB is now a very good player now he has been first choice at Salford and got that much needed experience. He is vital to them. Problem Warrington could have is that Patton could keep being stagnated and never progress and end up in the championship where GOB will have had a better career which would be a shame as i think Patton is better. We have kind of done the same thing with Hampshire. We have held him back and held him back and now he is 22 and just been moved onto Leigh. He had bags of potential but if it goes wrong at Leigh there will be no Super League lifeline for him when he could have been an international player if given the chance. His problem is 'Ratchford Syndrome' though. Nobody seems to know where to use him.

Very good post and I'm sure I'm not the only one with the same concerns that your raise. Patton needs high pressure game time, he needs to make the mistakes and learn from them. Rather than be dipped in and out for games against lesser opponents. I think sometimes with GOB everyone was waiting for him to take control of the lesser games, whereas regardless of who the half back is, when the pack are making meters at will (like they were at times in 2011/12, tries often score themselves.

GOB's better games were against better teams, the Wigan game in the play offs, Leeds (in the MND shirt) and St George spring to mind, but he just didn't have enough time to learn from his mistakes and put them right on the big stage.

Saving grace is that neither Gidley or Brown will play 25 games this year, so he will get minutes.

I made no comment on the approach of academy coaches or how to motivate and inspire young people. Just commenting on the likelihood of players breaking though to be top SL players from the current Warrington setup to counter the hyperbole. More than likely we will rely on signing young players from other clubs again like we did this year .

I would hope that Patton t king Savelio Johnson can start to see some significant game time.

Expecting every player from the academy to break into the first team is unrealistic, not just in our own case but in other teams also. So we along with other teams will look to sign talent from other teams to imply we rely on it is unfair.

My concern is that at a club we are reluctant to give a youngster a chance to have a good run of games, unless forced by injury, if sandow/gidley were fit Patton wouldn't have got the run he had and would have lost another year. A question worth pondering is if Williams had come thru our own academy would he be in our first team now, I feel the answer would be no, he was given the hb spot by wane and was given the opportunity to sink or swim and it has paid off. He has a lot more SL experience than Patton and at a young age that's crucial. Their fans had patience and understood he was not the finished article and allowed him time to develop and improve. On the flip side reading thru our forum many people would have a fit if Patton was going to be our starting hb this season.

Quote ="Dezzies_right_hook"I would hope that Patton t king Savelio Johnson can start to see some significant game time. Expecting every player from the academy to break into the first team is unrealistic, not just in our own case but in other teams also. So we along with other teams will look to sign talent from other teams to imply we rely on it is unfair. My concern is that at a club we are reluctant to give a youngster a chance to have a good run of games, unless forced by injury, if sandow/gidley were fit Patton wouldn't have got the run he had and would have lost another year. A question worth pondering is if Williams had come thru our own academy would he be in our first team now, I feel the answer would be no, he was given the hb spot by wane and was given the opportunity to sink or swim and it has paid off. He has a lot more SL experience than Patton and at a young age that's crucial. Their fans had patience and understood he was not the finished article and allowed him time to develop and improve. On the flip side reading thru our forum many people would have a fit if Patton was going to be our starting hb this season.'" For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim.

Quote ="Dezzies_right_hook"I would hope that Patton t king Savelio Johnson can start to see some significant game time. Expecting every player from the academy to break into the first team is unrealistic, not just in our own case but in other teams also. So we along with other teams will look to sign talent from other teams to imply we rely on it is unfair. My concern is that at a club we are reluctant to give a youngster a chance to have a good run of games, unless forced by injury, if sandow/gidley were fit Patton wouldn't have got the run he had and would have lost another year. A question worth pondering is if Williams had come thru our own academy would he be in our first team now, I feel the answer would be no, he was given the hb spot by wane and was given the opportunity to sink or swim and it has paid off. He has a lot more SL experience than Patton and at a young age that's crucial. Their fans had patience and understood he was not the finished article and allowed him time to develop and improve. On the flip side reading thru our forum many people would have a fit if Patton was going to be our starting hb this season.'" For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim.

Quote ="Wires71"For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim.'" For one reason or another, we probably over relied on these lads in 2015 and whilst we had a disappointing season and although O'Brien was moved on to sink or swim elsewhere, I don't think that it can be laid at their collective doors. I would think that in 2016 they were a year older, we recruited better and had their game time balance a bit better, maybe Philbin and Wilde were under exposed in comparison to what might deemed to be a 'normal' assessment year as far as the fans are concerned? 2017 should be a more accurate year as to who's sinking, or swimming I wish it would hurry up!!

Quote ="Wires71"For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim.'" For one reason or another, we probably over relied on these lads in 2015 and whilst we had a disappointing season and although O'Brien was moved on to sink or swim elsewhere, I don't think that it can be laid at their collective doors. I would think that in 2016 they were a year older, we recruited better and had their game time balance a bit better, maybe Philbin and Wilde were under exposed in comparison to what might deemed to be a 'normal' assessment year as far as the fans are concerned? 2017 should be a more accurate year as to who's sinking, or swimming I wish it would hurry up!!

But again, why? I showed an article which had six local players from a dominant local amateur side with five international standard players from two years ago. None of which have been offered full time terms whilst players have been brought in from other clubs above them and typically on far better terms.

I can guarantee that some of them should have progressed as the ability was/is there.

The whole idea of working in the community is to provide a pathway for local players.

It's a good question.

Its probably quite simple really, the players brought in are better than the ones let go. The comments form us fans are biased towards our home grown players. Can you imagine how difficult it is to assess a player at 17/18 and decide which one is going to make it to Super League. We are just fans, friends, family etc we are not professionals at this otherwise we would all be employed by the club. Its tough when it gets to Academy >Super League and I would assume that location of player goes out of the window as its also a business.

But... these players were international players which put them in the top twenty best players in the country.

And decisions are being made about a player being good enough at 17/18 hence them being signed in from other clubs on substantial contracts with an automatic promise of a full time contract after twelve months.

It is about time local players got the same treatment and are valued accordingly. Two tier system based on other factors and not because of ability.

Compare and contrast with Wigan and the way the produce SL quality players locally in volume.