Starting a new thread to reply to Wires71 in the Patton thread

As a club we seem to have been very keen to push a "good news story" culture around our academy, for a long time now. The general narrative that we have been told seems to be that up to the end of the 1990s, we were disorganised in terms of youth development with little formal structure and just relied on using sign-on fees to get talented kids to join us and hope we found some good ones. Then during the DVDV era we set up the scholarship and from then on got a lot more formal structures in the youth set up and it became a lot more professional. For a good 15 years or more we've had lots of good news stories about the Academy in the Warrington Guardian, or at supporters events where club officials will say the right things about how we've invested hard and are starting to see the rewards of it in the lads coming through now. On this forum there will be people that follow the Academy giving glowing reports about various players and in the off season we always get threads like "the future's bright, the future's Wire" where people list a potential first team for a couple of years time full of home grown players and so on.

The feel good stories are always there, but where are the players?

The end result is the quality of players coming through and if we're really honest we haven't improved, we're stuck at the same level of producing one or two lads every four years or so who are good enough to be decent first teamers and a handful of others who follow the path Wires71 says above. This is nowhere near what the clubs who win trophies regularly like Leeds, Wigan and Saints are doing. They churn out internationals, players that sign for NRL clubs, and also some guys who aren't as good as their next batch of home grown talent and so they get moved on to clubs like us!

The last time we were at that level was in the early to mid 1990s when we brought through Harris, Sculthorpe, Lee Penny, Hilton, Wainwright, Roper and Knott. 2 superstars there plus a few others who were at least good SL players for a while. If we had produced at that sort of rate every decade I would be very happy. Instead this is what we have had:

DVDV era: Wood, Sibbit, Noone, Hulse, Highton, Alstead, Stenhouse, Campbell, Cowell

Cullen era: C Riley, Cooper, K Penny, Pickersgill, Blythe, Mitchell, Durbin

TS era: Currie, Dwyer, O'Brien, Philbin, Patton, R Evans, Williams, McCarthy, Ormsby, G Riley, D Bridge, B Evans, King, Wild, Smith, Johnson, Dagger, Livett

Probably around 4 of those were quality players who would have interested top sides. Then another 6 or 7 you could argue would be decent first team SL standard for a mid-table side. The rest were not good enough although in some cases they got a lot of games with us, that they would not have done at other clubs where there is more upwards pressure from the next generation coming through.

Something has not worked in our Academy set up. I understand you have to give it time, sure but we're talking nearly 20 years now and the disappointing thing is the quality of players coming through doesn't seem any better than it was in the early 2000s or late 1990s, and there are no real superstars to show for it. We are still streets behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds and although for a while we could compete with them in terms of money and signing experienced players hence our 3 Challenge Cups and various losing appearances in finals and league leaders shields, the Academy is a clear dividing line between us and them and until that's sorted out we will be fighting an uphill battle to match those clubs.

I think Philbin looks like the best we’ve produced from a young age for a long time. He’s an athletic lad, fast, good tackler, runs good lines, good footwork. I’m actually really impressed with him.

I don’t really know how long Currie was in our youth set-up but he’s arguably the best player in the team.

Other than that I’m scratching my head.

Good post. It's a complex subject that involves

1. Scouting - finding the players which we will need in 5 years.
2. Recruitment - beating off the likes of Wigan/Saints/Leeds to recruit them.
3. Developing the potential - taking a young player and giving them the skills and know how to develop to their potential.
4. Transitioning the young player into a full time 17 player.
5. Retaining the player should other clubs want to tempt them away.

Our academy is said to be world class. I wonder which of these 5 we do better than others.

SC's list is a damping indictment if how far our scouting/development of youth has fallen, since it's 90's revamp. Those opening names still sit very well with me (bar Knott, never kicked on, for me).

Since then, only Wood, Riley, Penny and Currie are the only ones to come close. The rest (bar permacrock Rhys Evans....what might have been) are merely flotsam and jetsam or plain tosh.

So that's it. 10 players in 25 years. That's p155p00r by most standards, let alone a club who's youth policy is looked on with envious eyes.

With RU going pro 20+ years ago, top notch Aussies don't come here anymore, apart from idiots who can't behave themselves, and our underperforming youth policy, no wonder Moran's chequebook is regularly on his desk.

Can you add Ben Harrison & possibly James Laithwaite to that list. Terry Newton was also an academy player (before Leeds poached him)

Is it the quality of the young players or the quality of coaching post academy years? We seem to have a glass ceiling where our young players don't progress once they come to first team level. Daz Clark is only just showing his Cas form & you look at teams like Cas & Salford & Wakefield & the coaches are getting the best out of what players they have ,they are not spending big money on players . Myler & O'Brien have improved greatly since they moved to other clubs where the coaches had a bit of confidence in them.

Did Myler improve by going to the Catalans Dragons?

Well he's improved enough to get a job at Leeds .

I think part of the problem is the vast chasm between Academy and SL level. Someone like Patton is a good example. Whatever your view of his abilities, he outgrew the Academy level rapidly, had considerable potential but wasn't ready for SL. You could argue his lack of progress stems from being thrown in too early too young.

In the old days he'd have graduated to A team, where he'd have faced a more demanding combination of senior pros, squad players and similar level apprentices.

The only place for promising Wire players to go after the Academy is Rochdale, and this seems to be viewed as more of a punishment than anything. Certainly I can't recall anyone going there, ripping it up and being rewarded with first team rugby.

How did everyone afford to run an A team in pre-SL days with pre-SL finances but now claims it's an unaffordable luxury?

This doesn't seem to affect the youth development at Wigan or Leeds. Nah I think the problem is specific to Warrington.

It would be quite telling to list the output of Wigan, Leeds and Saints during that 25 years by means of comparison.

Here are just some of Wigan's.

Kris Radlinski, Simon Haughton, Sean Long, Andy Johnson, Darryl Cardiss, Paul Johnson, Rob Smyth, Jon Clarke, Lee Gilmour, Stephen Wild, Luke Robinson, Shaun Briscoe, Sean O'Loughlin, Kevin Brown, Gareth Hock, Harrison Hansen, Paul Prescott, Bryn Hargreaves, Darrell Goulding, Joel Tomkins, Mike McIlorum, Lee Mossop, Sam Tomkins, Josh Charnley, Liam Farrell, Stefan Marsh, Jack Hughes, Joe Mellor, Dom Crosby, Sam Powell, Matt Russell, Logan Tomkins, Joe Burgess, Ryan Hampshire, Dominic Manfredi, Lewis Tierney, George Williams, Ryan Sutton, Oliver Gildart, Tom Davies, Liam Marshall.

Good discussion so far. There are lots of issues.
My observations are based on experience a while back so be out of date (I hope they are) but are that:-

Warrington sign players based very strongly on physique and fitness. If you are not going to be 6'3" and 15 stone they are not interested. Kyle Eastmond and Joe Mellor are two players who could have been at the club. Often they seem to sign players who are early maturers and have peaked already. Players are signed for achievement not potential. (Sam Tomkins at 15 had two Warrington based players ahead of him at county level but was still growing up - and maybe one day will )

They don't build enough skills. Lots of weights. Lots of fitness. (Easy to coach) But no large scale skills development. Targets are set for fitness, body fat, weights lifted, miles run but not for skills

Academy games are seen as about winning rather than a chance to build your game and your skills. Players look no different at 18 than at 15 - same flaws, same qualities - maybe this flows through to first team too. I think players learn to hide weaknesses rather than correct them

Players are signed who (generally) want to play rugby - they then get to play no games for a year or two are excluded from playing amateur rugby or even 5 a side with their mates. If you have hopes of playing rugby and don't play, you fall out of love with the game. Most who don't get a contract at the end of their academy time never play rugby again. Most are not Warrington supporters now

The club behave as if they own the players. Social life scrutinised, Club activities take priority. You must train every week and extras are encouraged. And for £60 a week. With a 10% chance of success. Work a day a week at Tesco or an evening in a bar and the lifestyle is better.

Players from outside the area get better deals to attract them to Warrington. They are not necessarily better players but Warrington assume that locals will be loyal.

If/once you get to first team, no one pushes your development - you are there to do a job and you do it and you stay - you don't and you are out. Academy coaches have done their job and first team coaches have a product to fill a gap. There is little support for getting the player to a higher level.

Just a thought or two.....

M

Well the club must have identified this as a problem and recruited Peter Riding, from Castleford, as Head of Youth. But I am confused with who is in charge of what here. https://warringtonwolves.com/performance-team/ We have a Head of Performance, then a Performance Manager. A head of youth, then 6 assistant u16 coaches. Jobs for the boys in 3 positions. Please tell me it's not Gary Chambers and his dad teaching u16 back play. The Wigan setup is very different with separate Performance and Rugby departments. They have Sean O'Loughlin (current international, club captain, multiple GF and CC, WCC winning club legend) working with the U19s.

Well the club must have identified this as a problem and recruited Peter Riding, from Castleford, as Head of Youth. But I am confused with who is in charge of what here. https://warringtonwolves.com/performance-team/ We have a Head of Performance, then a Performance Manager. A head of youth, then 6 assistant u16 coaches. Jobs for the boys in 3 positions. Please tell me it's not Gary Chambers and his dad teaching u16 back play. The Wigan setup is very different with separate Performance and Rugby departments. They have Sean O'Loughlin (current international, club captain, multiple GF and CC, WCC winning club legend) working with the U19s.

A real area of concern. Hopefully an area Price will be looking at.
Out of curiosity I wonder if young players look at that list and think they will have a better chance of being nurtured and developed elsewhere? Ben Currie being an exception.