With the start we made, the squad we have, the abundance of forwards signed and the improvement of the pack, the fact that Saints have just lost one of their greatest coaches in the SL era and have had an indifferent start coupled with the fact that Wigan look like they are a Bevan French injury away from being a pretty average team, we should be aiming to be challengers.

Similar to Arsenal this season where no body expected them to be challengers but with the likes of Liverpool and City (to their standards) dropping off they find themselves in a unbelievable position where, never in their wildest dreams before the season started, did they expect to be top of the league with six games left after tonight. That should be the model this season, shoot for the stars and all that.

Also, don't give me the nonsense about finishing 11th last season. That team should never have finished 11th with the personnel we had and players performances were an absolute joke. I'd like to remind you that Leeds were 11th when Rohan Smith took over last season and went on to reach a Grand Final.

Wish it was that simple. Hearing Griffiths being so vocal early on and the penalising for it like I’ve said in previous posts on this I just can’t get how every ref seems to be different with it.

Yes.

They wont like Wigan getting double the benefit of the doubt in St Helens, and will add to their conspiracy theorists claims.

You can slow the play the ball down by controlling the ruck. The arbitrary bit for the ref is deciding when the player has been held and who won the collision.

If you play touch rugby then you could measure the time for a ruck, but in a collision game that is tricky.

Lets say the release has to be 3 seconds from when held is called, but then you have to decide what is a release? Is a player released if all hands are off but there is still a tangle of legs. What if a players arm is stuck under the ball carriers arm? If the player pulls their arm out and the ball comes with it is that a knock on or a reefing of the ball. It is a challenge that RL has that RU does not as in RU there is no play the ball and therefore no need to judge the ruck speed. In American football the play stops completely and starts again from a set point. Our game is unique in that the collision is a tangle of bodies and positions and judgements from the ref.

Probably the ideal tackle is
a) holding a player
b) small backwards momentum (to allow more time for the ref to call held)
c) to be taking the player to the ground at the point held is called (so that a few more microseconds are added for hitting the ground)
d) to have some limb entanglement (to allow for slower release)
e) for the ball carrier to be falling to their back with head away from the attacking line (so the player has to regain their feet and direction before playing)

All this would add to the time in the tackle whilst not actually meaning the tackling players are holding down for any longer.

Whereas probably the worst tackle is

a) just a hand or finger on a ball carrier
b) ball carrier has hit the ground quickly in with forward momentum (Makinson at his best does this)
d) no limb entanglement
e) for the ball carrier to hit the ground in an all 4s position with no one on their back so are able to regain their feet more efficiently.

Either way it has been well publicised that Saints have received the slowest play the ball of the last 2 seasons, so it goes to show that you can still win a lot of games even without getting the calls from the ref.

Indeed I think Wigan last year had the second slowest play the ball behind Saints, so both top sides (and trophy winning sides) which other sides successfully managed to slow down but could still perform.

Haha, it's only for this seasonso far, It's been saints twice for the past few seasons. I expect that by the end of this season the Saints will have put enough pressure on the disciplinary panel to be back as the leading council with double benefit of the doubt to Wigans 1 unit and everyone else's 0.

I meant to say wigan, saints and Leeds, but didn't.