We replaced Carvell, Wood, Hicks, Anderson to name four off the top of my head. Many fans criticised that, especially Carvell and Wood who went on to fantastic careers at their next clubs (I assume so anyway).

We made major changes after that first Grand Final defeat to Wigan.

Morley, Carvell, Briers, Hodgson, Cooper all left after that defeat and over the next year we moved on Riley, Wood and Willie Poching as assistant coach. In came Asotasi, England, Russell, Penny and Agar as assistant coach.

I wonder if Cas will be as radical in their response to defeat.

Morley carvel and briers were not let go by choice perse Morley wanted to end at Salford cArvell was done and briers was forced to retire cooper had agreed a move prior to the season ending so hardly like the club had a lot of input on those players leaving.

Cas were missing big game players tonight Ones that have played in and won big games and that can handle the pressure and their calmness will run off on rest of team.

Whilst Leeds May lose maguire they have younger players who have won one ore two gfs already so that experience is always there within the team. It will take something special for a team to beat Leeds saints or Wigan in a gf irrespective of the league position or how they have played all season as cas and ourselves have experienced first hand!!

I think pre 2004 we didn't have the money to compete with Wigan, Saints, Leeds and so it was unrealistic for the club governance to set high ambitions. That is not the case now.

But with those clubs it's like success is ingrained in their culture and ethos. You just know that they will be contenders every season, in a way that Wire are not.

I think it's all about the aims and expectations set by the clubs leader who has the balls to carry through on it with selection of coach, backing for quality players, decisive action.

McManus sacked Cunningham early as he wasn't meeting the level required. Saints had a disappointing season by their standards but made the playoffs and 1 point off the final.

Hetherington went public with a "sort it out by end of March or else" letter after the drubbing at Castleford. Another GF win.

By Tony Smiths own admission, Simon Moran was "too loyal". We could all see the problems coming with poor player quality and squad depletion for a while. The attacking flair was gone and we started to concede more and more. Then we get players dropped for "attitude", players out of position, the camp fractures, and players become undroppable. By this time the game is up you can see on the pitch that the players are not putting it in. Even the coach is disillusioned.

The closest comparative club to Warrington is Saints. In the SL Era, played in a poor stadium, not blessed with bags of money or massively high gate receipts nor do they have a youth setup like Leeds or Wigan. But what they did have was the will to be the best.

The winning attitude is set at the top and filters down.

Those teams haven't all had plain sailing consistency, they've made mistakes of their own that provide lessons for us.

Leeds are the best example to follow, but they started from a position of similar frustrations to us. Relatively well funded, had some big name players but didn't deliver the trophies: look at the Leeds story through the 80s and 90s. Until 96 they were in the shadow of Wigan like everyone else, but it must have rankled with them when Bradford and Saints moved ahead of them in the early days of Super League. I think they had a watershed point in 2001 when the latest attempt to import success through big names in Clyde and Mullins had failed and they lost Iestyn Harris who the team was built around. After that they hit the recipe for sustained success. The constant factor is Gary Hetherington. Do we have a CEO in Karl Fitzpatrick who is going to run the club like GH does Leeds?

Saints were great for a decade or so but after Daniel Anderson left they have accepted a lower level. They have had 5 coaches since: Potter, Simmons, Brown, Cunningham and Holbrook, and won one trophy, whereas we have won 3 in that time. Sure its a Grand Final and the one we want, but Wigan had a man sent off at the start of that game. If that had happened in one of their finals with us instead, it would probably have been us with a GF win and Saints would have lost their last 6 GFs. I know that's a bit "if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" but sometimes you have to look at those incidents of luck rather than saying Saints have some ingrained mentality that we don't....if they had such a great mentality they wouldn't have such a losing record in GFs.

Wigan went through a decade from 1999 to 2009 where they just won one Challenge Cup, which in Wigan terms is a very barren spell. They had the money to bring in whoever they wanted: Renouf, M Johns, Dallas, Lam, Furner, Barrett plus they had a lot of the better British of the time like Farrell, Radlinski, Newton, O'Connor and still they could never match Bradford, Saints or Leeds when it counted. Their success since has been with far less glamorous players. They have a self-perpetuating culture like Leeds do where young players come in to the side and fit in to the attitude and way they play from the start, they can lose senior players and still be resilient.

"Grand Finals are won on many different facets, and one of them is a sheer bloody-mindedness not to lose."

Brian McDermott reflects on last night.

Unlike TS, Brian has never enjoyed multilatetal support of everyone at the Leeds club, certainly not the spectators. He has always conducted himself with restraint, dignity and professionalism whether it be in the face of criticism or praise. He has had his achievements challenged and soured and his mistakes publically held up to ridicule.

He is the template for mental toughness and I cannot think of anyone who deserves it more.

This is the crucial difference between us Leeds, Saints, Wigan and is the reason why, as Lefty has pointed out in another thread that our success is only ever sporadic and is not sustained.

So what drives that? Top down culture, or simply better youth development and overall recruitment performance?

I don't understand the belief that Saints are on a par with Leeds and Wigan, they haven't been for a decade or so as highlighted in SC's post. In fact it could be argued that their fall from grace is more stark than ours.

Since 2006 Saint Helens have made the GF 7 times, winning twice.
Since 2006 Leeds have made the GF 7 times, winning 7 times.
Since 2006 Wigan have made the GF 6 times, winning 2 times.

Since 2006 Saint Helens have made the CCF 3 times, winning 3 times.
Since 2006 Leeds have made the CCF 5 times, winning 2 times.
Since 2006 Wigan have made the CCF 3 times, winning 2 times.

Leeds are clearly the standout, but St Helens fall from grace has been limited with 10 finals, 2 GF and 3 CC trophies. In fact if Wire had achieved this we would no doubt be arguing it was a successful period

Only 2010/11/12 have we had a squad with the quality to match those clubs, and we have never had young players to match.

One of those GF wins and all 3 of the CC wins were in 2006-2008 while Daniel Anderson was coach, you can't count the Anderson era in Saints 'fall from grace', but they have not been the same since Anderson left. They have struggled to replace big name players who have retired or gone to the NRL, while Leeds and Wigan seem to have managed the departure of their stars and maintained success.