Just for a reality check please put up a graph of our performance for the 10 years previous to 2010.

We were the City of RL. For 35 years both clubs failed to win a major trophy then broke their duck at Wembley. We then went a few years being the Arsenal of RL, winning the odd Cup but not Super League.

I don't know what we are now.

Shat. Boring, predictable, clueless, great trainers.

1996: 5th
1997: 9th
1998: 10th
1999: 7th
2000: 6th
2001: 7th
2002: 10th
2003: 6th
2004: 8th
2005: 4th
2006: 6th
2007: 7th
2008: 6th
2009: 10th
2010: 3rd
2011: 1st
2012: 2nd
2013: 2nd
2014: 5th
2015: 6th
2016: 1st
2017: 10th (currently)

Really, what does that mean, I never mentioned facts? You followed my post about the graph and alluded to it showing facts in a conversation, joined up thinking sense. I'm sorry for misinterpreting your post, or giving you credit that might not be deserved,

It's difficult to argue with someone that constantly states that the facts are the facts, and then uses their interpretation of the facts to back up their argument. You know like you did previously discounting the LLS as worthwhile trophy and using the data to compare TS's barren years (post 2012 in your book), with our peers.....who could argue with that?

I will leave it there thanks as it seems that all debate, even one asking is it the fans fault is stuck on a default path that ultimately lead to a none GF winning 'Rome' ....see you at the sit in

Well, you have to be careful with facts as well 71. If you take the graph up to 2016 you would have to say that there has been no decline at all. And of course Jimathy described 2016 as a 'blip', but of course it would also be easy to say that 2017 is a 'blip' and ignore it.

The way people interpret the 'facts' is the important aspect - as well all know Russia didn't invade Crimea, there is no such thing as the holocaust, and the moon landing was staged in a film set -- all stuff you would laugh at, but believed by large numbers of people around the world. All caused by people with an agenda interpreting the 'facts'.

The facts I was referring to were the historic league positions which were shown in the graph. I don't know why you have such an issue with dealing in facts.

No-one has said they would join me at the sit in, so I'm not wasting £22 breaking my strike and going to the game for nothing.

I understand your point, but surely we can all agree the league positions stated are accurate, and it was those to which I referred. It's not like I'm citing UFO sightings as "fact" or proof of irreducible complexity as "fact".

Rico get's in a huff when I use facts to back my argument up. But his judgement may be seen to be flawed as he was a Smith Remainer until having a recent epiphany and doing a volte-face.

Yes, our history and where we were 10 or 20 years ago is worth taking stock of, but kind of irrelevant with where we should be now.

Bradford were multiple Super League and World Champs 15 or so years ago. They don't expect that now though - they set their expectations based on recent history and the current state of the club.

Similarly, why should we be happy with finishing 7th-10th just because 10-20 years ago that's where we were? Where we were all that time ago is irrelevant for today's expectations given the current state/setup/playing staff/financial clout etc.

Anyone is free to interpret the data as they see fit. Whether you see this season as a blip, or last season as a blip - only time will tell in future seasons.

If you look at Leeds' league graph, it makes far worse reading than ours, but they have 3 SL Championships over that same time.

Rico already called it - the debate is heading to to our "non-GF wins". We've contested 3 GFs. Two of them, on another day, we could/should have won. For the toss of a coin we would have 2 Championships. Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

But as cliche as it is to say, sport is a results led business. We didn't win. We have won diddly squat of importance. That's why we have the conversations about the LLS and CC. It's the wrong conversation to be having IMO. We are Arsenal, proud of our "4th place trophy", while Wigan, Saints and Leeds are winning real titles.

You wrote "That's the great thing about facts. Hard to argue against." Immediately after Rico had written "Great graph, they are...". That suggests you are supporting Jimathy and his conclusions from the graph. The data points are facts (league positions), the interpretations are not facts, simply opinions. Hardly surprising then that Rico was irritated.

For the record, I too thought TS was deserving of more time at the start of the season. I disagreed with you about waiting to see how the year progressed because a) TS has brought us more success than we have had for a long time and b) the recruitment should have strengthened the team over 2016. I suspect like UR, I now believe he should go because of the team performance over the last few months. That is not an 'epiphany' - (which is defined as happening at a given moment), it's a judgement call over several months of shocking performances.