i don't think the format is to blame really... i remember in 03, 04, 05 (when the format was the essentially same) we were an average side stocked with journeymen who occasionally played out of their skins and pulled off a brilliant performance

when that happened there was no better feeling

and when it didn't happen we either got stuffed and all enjoyed shouting at the ref or ended up in a tight game that could have gone either way which of course was entertaining

and the atmospheres were generally better because we were all willing them on so much, whereas now they only really need willing on in the games against the other top teams (with the occasional exception eg widnes)

is it the case that in superleague in the middle is exciting but a team at the top is simply boring?

wigan speccies are famed for disappearing early

didn't bradford's crowds start dying after season on season of smashing everyone?

Exactly, and from an off the field point of view there was over 9,000 people in attendance at a decent standard ground, so that 14th club obviously have something to offer.

Reality is there will be flaws in any format, and moans amongst fans regardless. If you don't like watching Wire then don't. Personally I just about still like it, despite the stress I mentioned above!

I agree the atmosphere at Widnes on Friday was dreadful and very quiet even when we scored those two quick tries at the start of the second half.

There was loads of empty seats where I was in the East Stand too so it wasn't sold out at all despite the club stopping selling tickets there for some reason.

It just felt very flat and not at all the derby I was looking forward to. For atmosphere I think the away fans really do need to be in the West Stand next to that vocal block of Widnes fans in that corner of the North.

I'm against a cull per se as it serves no real purpose, Widnes were well worth their win and well backed. we might have been culled ouselves at one point in SL history?

However, I'm also in favour of a first past the post system to decide the Champions and a real reward for league postions, a genuine 'points make prizes' if you like, whether that's straight cash and or an expanded WCC place, our very own Champions League with another automatic place going to the Play Off winners.

All this talk of Minor Prem this and that is degrading, we are in fact the prophets of our own doom

That's where I was, near the bottle throwing idiot(s) and Kendal Wire's bedsheet (presume it's his?) It was no better in there for atmosphere TBH and as away fans we should have upped our game? You never know the players may have responded apart from polite clapping after the final whistle

This issue keeps coming up time and time again this year- usually when we lose and people start doing their best Catherine Tate 'I ain't bovvered' impression. Few quick questions for the Private Frasers-

-Why does this seem to have only been an issue the past two years?
-What was your opinion on play off football in 2006 when we eliminated Leeds, and how would you have felt if we went on to the final?
-What credible alternative is there? I appreciate top 8 isn't the best method for SL but how would FPTP make SL exciting for anyone other than supporters of the top 2/3 once we get into the final third of the season?

People's gripe seems to be the fact that Leeds have won the past two years and not us. I keep hearing that Leeds don't care about the regular season, however from the games I have watched this year that is not the case at all. Thursday's game felt like a final.

The other argument is that from 5th you have an easier route to the final. That is utter rubbish. Look at last year- Leeds first played Wakey who played their hearts out and ran them very close for most of the game. The week after they flew out to Catalan which is never easy, from what I can remember they had a few lucky calls from the ref and Catalan really should have won. Seven days later they then travelled to the DW and won by one point. Keep in mind that all of those games were eliminators. I know which route I would rather take.

this thread would have got laughed off the bored had it been posted pre 2009.

Its a bit rich that these people start saying the format is crap just because it doesn't suit Wire but suits a team that finishes a bit better than halfway up the league but has plenty of experience of winning finals

I'm sure when Langer was here we were all dreaming of "sneaking into the top 6 and then anything can happen"... we loved the format back then.....loved it....

Similarly with Johns I don't remember anyone saying ooohh it wont be right if we become champions from 4th place.....send him home.... Saints are worthy champions....balls we were giddier than teenage girls at a Justin beiber concert......

I cant remember a similar single thread like this on these boards when we never troubled the top of the league.

In fact can anyone Remind me if the last non play off league was super exciting???
I'm trying to remember what the atmosphere was like at wilderspool in front of four thousand and 94 fans when London came to town, choc full of rank average Aussies and playing a warrington side with 3rd worst attack and worst defence in the league, and spanked us 18 - 38.

Yes I was bored and I was cold, but it happens a lot more at football matches believe me.

Exactly what I was trying to get at. Well said that man!

Did you see some of the crowds in Australia for the NRL this weekend, huge crowds culminating in 50+ 000 at Souths - the attendance at the ANZ may be slightly unprecedented but crowds down there continue to dwarf our own and are rising dramatically.

Yet, the structure of their game is broadly similar - they have the same play-off format, no promotion/relegation, I assume the cost of attending games is relatively comparable, TV have almost blanket coverage ...... so what's the difference?

The difference is the same now as it has always been. They have a competition where every team has a genuine chance to be grand final winners by virtue of their strength over the course of a season, not by luck of hitting form at the end of the year. They know they can't pick and choose their games, dismiss games as "nothing games" because finishing higher really does mean something, and give an advantage albeit a slender one.

Some of the results at the weekend, and the general downtime in quality over the last two years make a mockery of our claim that this is the elite competition and standards are improving.

This is a bit of a misconception. Yes the attendances there are bigger, but rugby league is massive in NSW and Queensland and Easter is definitely an exception to the rule.

Look at the grand final replay the other week- it only managed to pull in 11,923. On Sunday just over 8,000 watched Panthers v Titans. The round 3 average was 13,683.