That's pretty much identical to my own thoughts. Under Armour do make some outstanding rugby shirts (google the Wales RU and Clermont Auvergne RU shirts to get an idea) but, for whatever reason, we've spurned the opportunity to go for a classy design that just might've appealed to those who aren't already diehards and instead come up with something that's remiscent of something from the bad old days of the early 90s.

The kit was actually the first item discussed at the first (and so far only) meeting of the 'fans board.' FWIW, the design was rejected overwhelmingly by those present (although some people were more enthusiastic about the away design (I wasn't amongst them!). The overwhelming majority actually expressed a preference to a design that was much more 'traditional' (red shirt, white trim) and IMO far superior.

Unfortunately, it seems that the design by this stage had already been signed off. You can imagine the surprise of those who were present at the meeting when the design they'd 'rejected' was launched last Tuesday.

I personally won't buy the shirt as I really don't like the design or the collar (it actually looks far too similar to last year's IMO) but hopefully many other people will do.

My New Kits arrived today complete with player signatures, i actually think they look a lot better in the flesh than they do in the designs and delivered before Christmas

not United because they've never sold any merchandise with red devils on it?

Quote Mike87="Mike87"not United because they've never sold any merchandise with red devils on it?'" store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 How are you wrong about [ieverything[/i?

Quote Mike87="Mike87"not United because they've never sold any merchandise with red devils on it?'" store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 How are you wrong about [ieverything[/i?

seriously are you counting a Christmas tshirt?? It probably took you about 10 minutes to find that, all my man u gear (training tops) (tracksuits) (playing shirts) (hats) none have Red Devils on, it's a nickname the don't often use just like us when we were Salford City reds. If we market the RED DEVILS enough then it'll stick and we can use the name to our advantage.

I agree on this one. Bit pointless pointing out a rare one-off as an example to discredit your argument. A fairer way of doing it would have been to highlight it, but express that it was an exception rather than the norm. However, one-upmanship is strong on forums, so I wouldn't expect a great deal more.

Quote TheButcher="TheButcher"I agree on this one. Bit pointless pointing out a rare one-off as an example to discredit your argument. A fairer way of doing it would have been to highlight it, but express that it was an exception rather than the norm. However, one-upmanship is strong on forums, so I wouldn't expect a great deal more.'" How about this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 5&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 0&cid=3970 How many bits of regular, non-festive merchandise do I need to post before I'm discrediting a statement that was obviously nonsense rather than engaging in one-upmanship?

Quote TheButcher="TheButcher"I agree on this one. Bit pointless pointing out a rare one-off as an example to discredit your argument. A fairer way of doing it would have been to highlight it, but express that it was an exception rather than the norm. However, one-upmanship is strong on forums, so I wouldn't expect a great deal more.'" How about this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 5&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 0&cid=3970 How many bits of regular, non-festive merchandise do I need to post before I'm discrediting a statement that was obviously nonsense rather than engaging in one-upmanship?

Quote stouffer="stouffer"How about this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 5&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 0&cid=3970 How many bits of regular, non-festive merchandise do I need to post before I'm discrediting a statement that was obviously nonsense rather than engaging in one-upmanship?'" You do realise that no matter how many examples you show it's still one-upmanship? There's also clearly far more merchandise without 'Red Devils' on it than with it. If you could statistically prove that there is more 'Red Devils' merchandise than not, then you would have a strong point. If you look at Mike's original point it finishes with a question mark and not a full stop. Indicating that he wasn't making a point in so much as asking if his point was valid. Replying that someone is 'wrong on everything' to that is not really contributing to the point at hand.

Quote stouffer="stouffer"How about this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 9&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 5&cid=3965 Or this one? store.manutd.com/stores/manutd/p ... 0&cid=3970 How many bits of regular, non-festive merchandise do I need to post before I'm discrediting a statement that was obviously nonsense rather than engaging in one-upmanship?'" You do realise that no matter how many examples you show it's still one-upmanship? There's also clearly far more merchandise without 'Red Devils' on it than with it. If you could statistically prove that there is more 'Red Devils' merchandise than not, then you would have a strong point. If you look at Mike's original point it finishes with a question mark and not a full stop. Indicating that he wasn't making a point in so much as asking if his point was valid. Replying that someone is 'wrong on everything' to that is not really contributing to the point at hand.

No, it really isn't. The bit where I said "how are you wrong about everything?" probably was and, in fairness, I was being a bit y there. Unnecessary and unfair - sorry Mike. However, if we're not allowed to disprove an argument using actual evidence then what's the point? Let's all go and get our Terry Campese shirts printed up eh? You could easily have taken a minute to look at the United site before playing the self-appointed forum sheriff and throwing sanctimonious, passive-aggressive digs about but chose not to. C'est la vie.

The argument that 'United don't use Red Devils, therefore we can be the best known Red Devils' is plainly untrue. We are never again going to be [ithe[/i Red Devils to the general public - that ship has long since sailed. Whether that means we should drop 'Salford' or not, I honestly have no idea. My gut feeling is that, no, sporting clubs need a sense of place, but I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong.

Evidence is great. Of course it is. But evidence is strongest when you provide plenty of it. I'd be interested to see what the statistical figure for merchandise with and without the Red Devils on it. I'm not that interested or have the time to find out for myself. What you've done is provide some evidence that backs up what you say, just not enough to throw the argument out.

As for the forum Sheriff rant, I find it interesting that you took anything I said to heart. All I did was take up a different position than you and I didn't think I was being offensive in any way. I think you're being a tad sensitive if you think I've been Domineering, sanctimonious, or passive aggressive. I thought you were a little bit of all three of those things towards Mike before I even entered the discussion which, to your credit, you acknowledged.

I suggest chilling a little bit. Have a coffee. Go for a poo.

Then I think maybe we can all be friends again.

I think if either of us could find the time to do a statistical analysis of United's merchandise then it's probably time to re-evaluate our lives. I'd argue, though, that having found 4 bits of current Red Devils stuff in literally about a minute suggests that, outside of Mike's wardrobe at least, it's really not uncommon. Again, I'm not arguing that it's United's main branding point, simply that we are never again going to be [ithe[/i Red Devils to the man in the street.

We'll also have to agree to disagree on the point Mike was making. From an earlier post 'Nah I never use the red devils when talking about United, it's mainly United or man u.' - it seems fairly obvious to me that he's incorrectly extrapolated from the personal to the general and a question mark doesn't change that.

Having said all that, life's far too short be a bellend on the internet (too often anyway) so I'm more than happy to draw a line under it...

It doesn't even have to have "Red Devils" on the merch for Utd fans to think it relates to their club. A few years back I was wearing a Salford City Reds coat and one of their fans started asking me what I thought about the game at the weekend. He was actually talking about a game United had played against Chelski and had seen the "Reds" and the devil on the logo and thought I was a member of some supporters group or something. Then again, as a typical United fan, he was from London