Huddersfield offered free tickets for a game and it hardly boosted the crowd at all

We do a few games with cheap tickets in the past and it doesn't make much difference really

People won't attend something they don't like whether it's free or not

Toronto proved they could get 8,000 through the gates.... How Many super league clubs would get them crowds in league 1?.... None is the answer

They didn't verify the 8,000 you claim. But even 4,000 may have been a very good attendance for a free Rugby league game and a Free Beer festival.

But why as an established sensible poster are you even been drawn down the "crowds" line??

Right from the start Eric Perez spoke about his ambition for the TWP club and his desire to meet the criteria set them for entry to the game here. Perez fully acknowledged the club were required to develop North American players (and they actually did have several such players). However after year one they sacked the north american players off. There was no excuse for this as there are some good North American players playing league, they have played in RL World cups.

Perez fully acknowledged the need to get paying Canadian TV deals and he promised this from the start trying to sell his show in which Grid iron players would bid to convert to League and sign for the Wolfpack.

Nowhere but nowhere was the criteria for success "crowds" but you obviously fell for that, and of course Perez constantly peddled the massive crowds idea and TWP even went on to count the unverified thousands of "Eyeballs" i,e, alleged fans who avidly followed TWP over the internet and social media.

This "expansion club" was so successful it alleged it had hundreds of thousands of followers across the globe never mind "8.000" in the ground

You can find Perez agreeing to develop NA players and find Canadian TV money in his Dave Woods Interview on you tube. The "Crowds" argument was as phoney as the club and the reality was TWP failed to achieve anything they actually agreed to achieve.

And onto the way in which they decided to just dump the club.

David Argyle is a Billionaire and remains so, so money was never an object albeit he had a penchant for not paying his bills. He ran up about £30Million in bills proving transatlantic RL was not financially viable. He was not that interested either as his real personal aim was to own or part own an NRL club.

His "out" once he got bored with it all and realised the SL bosses did not want his circus, was to just walk away owing that massive debt with all his apologists claiming he had been financially wiped out by Covid. Funny thing is his large stakes in the Brazilian Potash mines remained unaffected as the Brazilian president didn't shut down the Brazilian economy, but I suppose the excuse suited people who didn't want the fact, that these phonies had taken RL for a ride to reflect badly on the game here.

So how is a phoney Ottawa Aces going to do it without a $$Billionairre??

So Huddersfield should not be allowed in Superleague then?

The final reality is there would be no Superleague without a bunch of down and out useless, never heard of small northern towns providing clubs into a regional league.

That enough northern investors, invest in enough northern clubs, who develop quality players, with enough northern fans to make these clubs professional and attractive to TV deals on the terrestrial and other channels is why we have RL in this country in the first place.

If you don't think Davey and Fartown are up to it then fine, kick 'em out......

You do recall that Perez left Toronto after about a year to not only start up Ottawa but to help out a M62 that was a repeat offender for not paying,don't you?

How do you think Super League should re - structure? This thread is about that...

Do you think the serial offenders,situated along the M62 corridor, for their numerous on and off field offences,are assisting with youngsters participation, and any future broadcast deal? As they have broken the salary cap twice,will the re-structure do away with a salary cap?
As the serial offending club seem to have problems with the players they sign from elsewhere should clubs be limited to players born and raised within a certain distance? Should the governing body run academies,thereby saving clubs money,and from there the players go to different clubs on a draft basis?
What is the future,other then you banging on with your flawed facts about overseas clubs?

Perez did say that Toronto would develop Canadian players and, waived their "share" of Sky monies, suggesting that they would have their own TV deal in N. America.
The failure to secure this deal harmed only Toronto and it had ZERO effect on the other SL clubs.

However, inflated or not, their crowds in League 1 and the Championship were excellent, especially for a new club in new territory.
It's not even an argument, it's plain black and white fact.

You talk about crowds "not being verified" but, NOBODY verifies their crowds. Why on earth should they, just as long as they pay the relevant tax to the authorities and share the gate money in fixtures demand it.

You do know that Toronto are no longer in SL ??

Should be interesting to see whether the proposed restructure has any positive benefit on the next tv deal in a couple of years time, especially with just one overseas club in the mix (unless Toulouse gain promotion and or Catalan are relegated0.

I'm still amazed anyone is debating Toronto Wolfpack at all.
There is no debate.
They came, they saw, they folded.
A rich mans folly that only the over zealous RL bigots applauded.

Anyone who dared question their existence was ostracized or accused of being a troll, but as these right minded people pointed out, the club was built on foundations of sand and they vanished without trace.
I rarely purchase any RL print media ay more because it's become a polarised cult like medium, that preaches to the choir. It is such an attitude that holds the game back in my opinion as it makes us look very insular and "clique-like" and therefore unattractive to both new fans and new investors.
Anyway. As I said earlier. 20 teams over 2 divisions, with TV revenue allocated dependant on finishing positions. If Wakefield or Castleford want to remain in their stadiums, let them. If Clubs like London are happy to be reliant on a single benefactor for survival, so be it, but stop pandering to clubs and put the game first.
If Leeds can afford to spend to the cap because they have the fan income, then great and if an Argyle type benefactor wants to bankroll a club, then so be it....but let's get back to talking about the Game and not the friggin structure of the organisation. I don't support the NZ Warriors and London Broncos just so I can whine about the NRL/RFL.....I'd rather whine about how crap the teams are doing

That hit a nerve with a regular poster.

But you're right, every club does it and it's not a bad thing.

"Zero effect on other clubs"

Please don't bother replying if you have to make stuff up like this. The phoney club who failed to achieve their own targets for Superlague took the place of London Broncos in Superleague, and reduced the footprint of the professional game here back to the M62.

So called "expansionists" didn't bat an eyelid at that because they were never "Expansionists" just a small number of noisy people bored with English Rugby League, or wums just stirring things up, continually heralding the need to bring more phoney clubs in like Ottawa.

Let me once again let you have the facts. When Perez promised the TV money he promised it straight away by selling the rights to their search for RL talent amongst grid iron players.

When that didn't happen and when TWP could not get a paying TV deal for their actual matches, Perez was challenged openly. The slippery salesman answer was that he would not be able to get a massive North American deal if there was only one NA club in Superleague. He said that it would need at least FIVE north American clubs in Superleague to provide the content to attract American TV stations.

Frightened to death of a public row, the SL bosses said nothing as Perez lined up Ottawa, and Wilby lined up New York,

But the bottom line here was WUMS and blind so called "expansionists" didn't get it that once the English content of Superleage fell below 10 English clubs the SKY deal became null and void......

You may genuinely think Ottawa, Catalans, Toulouse, New York and TWP would have been a great thing, but this meant ramping up costs and losses across thie Transatlantic league and in addition losing the only TV deal available to the game here. You still keep calling this sort of thing "expansion" why??

Expansion is more pro players and more TV money, even Perez made that clear in his original interview....

Another derailed thread.

What is count up to now? Has to be at least a dozen.

Any discussion about restructure at the top tier is always going to involve comments regarding past failings.
Toronto Failed. Covid gives a smokescreen, but they were heading straight back down and the "rumours" of unpaid debts seem to carry water when the Billionaire owner walked even though his billions remain in tact.
Furthermore. Toronto were already in the UK, playing their games in the UK, so any excuse about "additional expense is a sham, as their squad would mostly been living at home anyway.

Enough about Toronto.

The game in the UK/France is now looking at a reduced income from TV and an unsure future when it comes to how many fans will return after 18 months. Sponsorship will be reined back too, as companies struggle through the next few years recovery, so the question has to be, how do the teams...all 20 or so in the top tiers see the game surviving over the next 5, 10 & 20 years?

I've recommended a 2 tier 20 with income from the central pool dictated on your finishing spot at season end and then performance during finals footie.

This will mean that the usual suspects (Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire and maybe a couple of others will see a slight reduction, whilst mid to bottom SL clubs will be brought more into line with top table Championship clubs.
If Wakefield or Huddersfield want to challenge the top clubs, then their owners or business models will have to fund it. Sugar daddies are great, but working as a business to attract revenue through fans sponsors etc is more sustainable. Toulouse and London (whilst Hughes is there) may well buy better squads and clubs like Salford and Wakefield may slip a bit, but even tiered distribution of central funds will create a level playing field.
SL has about a 8.5k gate average. This is driven by Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Hull , Catalan and Wire ll achieving more than this and the rest being dragged being. To those who say success = crowds, you're dreaming. Salford with 2 finals of late will struggle to get 4k (half the average) and 4k, isn't enough to challenge the top teams, so they either attract more fans or find a sugar daddy.

2 divisions with finals footie in both and 1 up one down between them. No duel reg. Play each other 3 times a year delivering 13 home games each. top 4 play offs.

You can meddle with the format all you like, but the reality is that Wakefield/Huddersfield/Salford/Leigh/HKR will be looking over their shoulders into the abyss until we offer a viable pathway bac from relegation.

How's the SKY money shared in this model and who are the 20 clubs?

It wouldn't be a 2 x 10, it'd just be a 10 team SL and a 10 team championship that SKY wont be interested in. That would lead to either less games and less income or playing everyone 3 times and just realistically becoming Scottish football whose league system is pretty much unfathomable.
Reducing the league will become a self fulfilling prophecy that will require even more input from sugar daddies as fans interest in 'the big games' wanes ever more as they are played 4 / 5 (even 6 if cup is included) times a year.

Many thanks for your welcome and well considered post.

I certainly understand that the lower SKY deal, allied to the failure under the current deal that's close to finishing, that wrongly centred on the P & R battle and not the Grand final, means that there is no money for the Championship 2022. There was tremendous resentment from most SL bosses that they were personally putting big money in whilst a large chunk of the TV deal was being thoroughly wasted in the Championship by the RFL.

And so the politics dictated that the "sugar daddies" Lenegan, Moran, Davey, Pearson, and Hudgell were determined that this time they (with McManus) would negotiate the deal with SKY and arrange for all the money to go to Superleague. Anyone who has watched the politics during this current long SKY deal can see how the rich owners have completely wrested control of the professional game.

I appreciate your analysis that "interest in the big games" played 4/5 times will wane.............. But I would suggest that the alternative would be to run with 14 clubs that would mean low interest in the "small games"

I think the SL bosses hoisting Leigh in means they are there to stay, and the activity that has been going on at Bradford means the SL bosses want their crowds and maybe Mr. Sawyer. The richest of the owners may be in Newcastle, no rich owner exists in Salford so to me the 10 clubs for Superleague 2022 pick themselves.

I am not sure about your "self fulfilling prophecy" though, the losers in this Coup would be Catalans and Salford who have hardly provided much in the way of "paying fans" over the years. I think the SL has done the maths and they may prefer Bradford and Newcastle to be in Superleague. Sure Newcastle may not have the travelling fans but they would help with a very rich owner and the ability to claim "real expansion"

The day they recently chose Leigh over Toulouse may be highly significant.......