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Quote: knockersbumpMKII "In many respects the history and how our sport came about plays a big hand in the objections to regional teams with true franchising even if it would probably be the best way forward for the sport over the next 50 years and further.
We certainly aren't nor have made any progression, in fact I'd say we've gone backwards at a rate of knots compared to other sports not just RU.
it's because of that identity, that history, that belonging to what your forbears did also and the pride and passion that will hold us back in the end.

For me if it was a case of lose my club for the sake of the sport as a whole not just for my generation but future generations then so be it. As an FC fan I would much rather watch an East Riding team for instance than see the game I grew up continue to struggle and fall by the way-side which is what will happen eventually (not 10/20 or even 30 years but it will happen) if we carry on with the cretins in charge of the sport and the many 'chippy' Northerners who think expansion should be no more than building a few bogs and putting a corrugated roof over the terraces'"


Even if it meant playing at KR's ground icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously though, we are in a catch 22 situation.
As RL is really only played along the M62 corridor and parts of the south of France, unless we truly force expansion (which can be done through marketing and plenty of cash), the game will stay exactly where it is both in terms of geography and exposure.
IF there was a serious desire to "re set" the game and "franchises were set up in different areas, then people would be happier than "merger's" as hey are usually thought about.
When the dreaded "M" word comes up, it's always Wakefield and Castleford and the 2 Hull clubs that are mentioned and quite frankly, these 2 changes will make naff all difference to the game as a whole and there would probably be a net loss of supporters watching the game, something that RL can ill afford.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "I fully understand what you are saying.
However, your supposition is that one big new club will be more attractive than 2 smaller "local" clubs.
In the longer term, it may well be, although this is pure conjecture.
If we really want to slice and dice the current SL clubs then lets go the whole hog.
Get rid of the lot and have a franchise in each major county across the country, plus 1 or 2 in Wales, 1 0r 2 in Scotland and a couple in Ireland.
I'm sure that it will work in the long term, just as it may do if Castleford and Wakefield merged.

Part of the attraction of RL as it stands are the local derby games and losing some of these would be a backward step.

Remember, this thread started on the back of Bradford going pop and whether the Championship is sustainable.

Anything is sustainable if the cost base is right, in relation to the spend going the other way and perhaps the better question would be
You say part of the attraction is the local derbies. I'm saying that may be part of the attraction for the already hard-core fan base. But we know it isn't doing an awful lot to attract everyone else. This is the heart of the issue. Our current market as compared to our potential market is tiny. Focusing on our current market and not out potential one will keep our game small. I'm not advocating for a merger of any clubs. Just making the point that it should be an option and the feelings of the current fan base would largely be irrelevant to its overall success.

However on the championships I agree with a lot of what you say. For them to be sustainable they first need to decide what they are. If they are to be a second tier providing a proving ground for clubs wanting to join SL then they are miles away from even achieving that never mind doing so sustainably. Bradford are a good example of the failure of the championshipa to do that. People suggest Bradford cut spending move to horsfall etc etc but all those actions they take to be a 'sustainable' championship club will make them unsustainable I'm SL. People highlight the likes of batley or Fev for their work becoming sustainable championship clubs but either would be absolutely ruined by promotion.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "You say part of the attraction is the local derbies. I'm saying that may be part of the attraction for the already hard-core fan base. But we know it isn't doing an awful lot to attract everyone else. This is the heart of the issue. Our current market as compared to our potential market is tiny. Focusing on our current market and not out potential one will keep our game small. I'm not advocating for a merger of any clubs. Just making the point that it should be an option and the feelings of the current fan base would largely be irrelevant to its overall success.

However on the championships I agree with a lot of what you say. For them to be sustainable they first need to decide what they are. If they are to be a second tier providing a proving ground for clubs wanting to join SL then they are miles away from even achieving that never mind doing so sustainably. Bradford are a good example of the failure of the championshipa to do that. People suggest Bradford cut spending move to horsfall etc etc but all those actions they take to be a 'sustainable' championship club will make them unsustainable I'm SL. People highlight the likes of batley or Fev for their work becoming sustainable championship clubs but either would be absolutely ruined by promotion.'"


On the evidence of Batley,they are more than sustainable,work within a budget and compete very well given the budget they stick with at that level. Are you saying they cant progress any further or happy to stay where they are at? Or possibly the infrastructure of SL couldn't support them.

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Using Bradford as an example for sustainability in the Championship isn't a good one , they aren't sustainable anywhere as long as they remain at Odsal

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Quote: atomic "On the evidence of Batley,they are more than sustainable,work within a budget and compete very well given the budget they stick with at that level. Are you saying they cant progress any further or happy to stay where they are at? Or possibly the infrastructure of SL couldn't support them.'"

im saying they can do what they do at the level they are at. But what they do isnt scale-able.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "im saying they can do what they do at the level they are at. But what they do isnt scale-able.'"


Fair comment..Since the door to SL was re-opened for Championship,how was scalability measured previously? In fact how could Hull KR be building a squad on full salary cap now,if it wasn't for a championship club that put that in place.

How do you measure scalability in this sport?

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Quote: atomic "Fair comment..Since the door to SL was re-opened for Championship,how was scalability measured previously? In fact how could Hull KR be building a squad on full salary cap now,if it wasn't for a championship club that put that in place.

How do you measure scalability in this sport?'"
It would be very difficult to measure scalability in a one size fits all manner. Different clubs, different businesses would require different things. But we can look at what is successful and what is needed for a club to get from where it is to there.

I think it is asking the impossible to expect Batley or any club really to switch between how a sustainable championship club needs to be set up and how a sustainable SL club needs to be set up. I'd also say that Leigh didnt do it, they werent sustainable running at that level in the championship indefinitely, and Hull KR arent doing it either, they have kept what they can of an SL set up but everyone knows thats a temporary attempt at getting back.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "It would be very difficult to measure scalability in a one size fits all manner. Different clubs, different businesses would require different things. But we can look at what is successful and what is needed for a club to get from where it is to there.

I think it is asking the impossible to expect Batley or any club really to switch between how a sustainable championship club needs to be set up and how a sustainable SL club needs to be set up. I'd also say that Leigh didnt do it, they werent sustainable running at that level in the championship indefinitely, and Hull KR arent doing it either, they have kept what they can of an SL set up but everyone knows thats a temporary attempt at getting back.'"


If a club owner has to put (might be wrong) a £1M bond to the RFL,in order to increase the cap,to attempt the impossible(was impossible).SL infrastructure,you either have the money or you dont..Hull KR and Sheens are living on a luxury,thats been handed to them,at a cost of a Championship club thats made it that way.He'd be struggling to get a team on less than a million..

In some ways yes, Leigh did right to go forward,for the game.But left benefits for the one that fell.

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It's notable how few of the fans of teams of these suggested mergers are actually in favour. If they're not going to back the venture then it'll probably fail, simple as. Because once you take those fans out of the equation there's virtually no difference from the attempts to establish teams in untapped catchments, i.e. where almost all the projected audience comprises people with no previous interest in the game.

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Expansion can only happen through marketing and providing a great game day experience in areas identifies for expansion, and the RFL should be contributing to the marketing budgets of Newcastle/Gateshead, South Wales, Coventry and London (don't care which London team). It's criminal that there seems to be no clear strategy from the governing body for growing the game outside heartlands other than get a little giddy when a rich person comes along for a few years with a big idea to build a club (see Toronto). I agree with a poster above, if this does not happen then the game will die in 30-40 years.

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Atomic, I see your point that Rovers task is easier due to the work done by Leigh. However, I think the changes have only worked for Leigh so far as without changes to the cap I do not think you would have been promoted and therefore Rovers would still be in Super League.

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Talk of expansion, mergers and growing crowds always makes me smile. Advertising and promotion will help grow an existing team if done correctly, there will be some buy in from people who can identify with this and will maybe go along and support it.

The problem with expanding past those boundaries is that unless it’s a sport people have grown up with, played at school and as a child it will be impossible to spread into an area outside of an established one.

There seems to be a view that there are millions of people just queueing up to go and watch RL, there aren’t. The people who are already bought in tend to go out of a sense of loyalty rather than enjoyment most of the time.

Building and selling a sport from nothing is unprecedented to my knowledge, darts and snooker could maybe claim they have done it but they are one off sports not a habitual attendance sport. RU was already played heavily at schools and league was used purely as a way of making money doing something similar. We missed the boat in the 80’s / 90’s to expand when RU was at its lowest ebb, since that boat has sailed we are now the Betamax to RU’s VHS, a better product but unfortunately no one wants it.

Using franchising in the NFL and NRL as an example are wide of the mark, these are both major sports in their country we unfortunately are not, what is being suggested is tantamount to claiming ice hockey can become the biggest sport in the uk.

The current RFL are reaping the failure of what has gone before and I’m afraid their only option now is to prop up what they have and not break whats left.

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I think that the championship is a much undervalued competition, sadly neglected by the hierarchy at Red Hall.

A complete re think is required below super league.

Marketing is the key to success, a lesson which I am sure Toronto will excel at this year.
I for one would not begrudge a RL executive earning more than Nigel Wood's salary instead
of trying to recruit top performers on the cheap.

All level's of RL suffer from a lack of media exposure and that should be the number one priority.

I would move mountains to persuade the ITV companies Yorkshire/Border/Granada? to take our product, even if it meant giving it away. Who knows, the Welsh, London and Midlands television companies might follow. A weekly highlights and a grass root section should have widespread appeal.

Similarly could not the big regional newspapers Manchester Evening News/Yorkshire Post be approached to sponsor the league or a cup competition. We need to get more column inches in those papers.

We need to get the game in the media more often in order to keep the fans talking and looking forward to watching their local heroes again. icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif

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Quote: ricardo07 "I think that the championship is a much undervalued competition, sadly neglected by the hierarchy at Red Hall.

A complete re think is required below super league.

Marketing is the key to success, a lesson which I am sure Toronto will excel at this year.
I for one would not begrudge a RL executive earning more than Nigel Wood's salary instead
of trying to recruit top performers on the cheap.

All level's of RL suffer from a lack of media exposure and that should be the number one priority.

I would move mountains to persuade the ITV companies Yorkshire/Border/Granada? to take our product, even if it meant giving it away. Who knows, the Welsh, London and Midlands television companies might follow. A weekly highlights and a grass root section should have widespread appeal.


Similarly could not the big regional newspapers Manchester Evening News/Yorkshire Post be approached to sponsor the league or a cup competition. We need to get more column inches in those papers.

We need to get the game in the media more often in order to keep the fans talking and looking forward to watching their local heroes again.

I actually like that post ricardo,well said. eusa_clap.gif

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Quote: smudgersmith "Atomic, I see your point that Rovers task is easier due to the work done by Leigh. However, I think the changes have only worked for Leigh so far as without changes to the cap I do not think you would have been promoted and therefore Rovers would still be in Super League.'"



So,you don't support a level playing field then?

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