FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Two Tier Super League A Step Closer ?? |
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| Quote: Horatio Yed "I agree with TheElectricGlidingWarrior (never thought that would happen)'"
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| In the Mail today, (I know), the RFU are selling naming rights for Twickers to fund improvements in the second tier of rugby.
Just saying
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| Quote: Tigerade "Warrington's boss is certainly all for it "Because the supply change would be there for clubs and maybe it would increase revenues."[/i
I see he's really thought this through.
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| Its disappointing that the two reports in to this have managed to get the quite important, and quite basic fact of when the TV deal ends wrong.
Our TV deal runs until the end of the 2016 season, not 2014.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Its disappointing that the two reports in to this have managed to get the quite important, and quite basic fact of when the TV deal ends wrong.
Our TV deal runs until the end of the 2016 season, not 2014.'"
I might be wrong, but for some reason seem to recall that we can renegotiate after three years.
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| Quote: TheElectricGlidingWarrior "You've totally ignored the point I made and the question I asked though. How many players from the bottom 4 teams in SL do you think would be redistributed across the 10 remaining teams in SL1? It seems to me that to drastically raise the competitiveness of SL/SL1 you would need to drastically increase the pool of talent, and siphoning off the best players from the worst 4 clubs won't achieve that. Not in the slightest.'"
There are a lot of very good players in the bottom four clubs that would benefit the other clubs, and have intact been signed up by many of them already. The gap between the top and bottom would not only be smaller, but the team in 10th would be stronger in a 10 team league than a 14 team league.
The increase in the (quality) talent pool would also not need to be so large with less teams.
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| Quote: Starbug "Where do I state it is responsible for those problems ? , or exacerbated the problems? '" So we are clear the issues at the clubs you mentioned weren’t caused by, or exacerbated by franchising and as such those clubs would have had those problems, under P+R aswell
Quote: Starbug "Is it providing the enviroment for those clubs to prosper? '"
Well we know you don’t think that those clubs found it harder because of franchising, are you trying to say that they didn’t find it easier to deal with those problems because of franchising? Are you saying the lack of relegation and the lack of threat of relegation didn’t make it easier for those clubs to solve those issues?
Quote: Starbug "IMO it is causing stagnation at the bottom of SL as well as in the Championship, if you think that is good for the sport then fine'" You need to learn the difference between a demonstrable fact and an opinion. You keep trying to give us facts, then when they are proved wrong, you pretend its ok, its an opinion and all are as valid as each other. Well they aren’t. You could say in your opinion LSV is the biggest stadium in the world. It would be an opinion, but it would clearly and provably wrong.
So even knowing you will avoid the question, because your answer will expose the fact your opinion is based on the fact it fits your narrative and not because of a logical conclusion, I will ask, What evidence led you to the conclusion that the bottom of SL is stagnating?
Quote: Starbug "I dont recall being overly active on here about Cas or Salford when their problems became public, although I predicted Salfords as soon as their stadium situation became apparent, it will cripple them'" You hope it cripples them. Because a strong and growing Salford would prove the value of franchising and expose your nonsense.
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| Quote: Wellsy13 "I might be wrong, but for some reason seem to recall that we can renegotiate after three years.'"
That’s not Sky’s view, or Barney Francis’ and I have no idea what benefit that would bring. If only we can re-negotiate why would sky agree to that? If both can re-negotiate then we don’t have a 5 year deal we have a 3 year deal.
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| Quote: Wellsy13 "There are a lot of very good players in the bottom four clubs that would benefit the other clubs, and have intact been signed up by many of them already. The gap between the top and bottom would not only be smaller, but the team in 10th would be stronger in a 10 team league than a 14 team league.
The increase in the (quality) talent pool would also not need to be so large with less teams.'"
Hmmm. Off the top of my head I can think of:
Hanbury
Cahill
Shenton
Chase
Howell
Robertson
Gower
Dixon
Broughton
Moon
Who would improve the top 10 clubs. I've probably missed a couple but I really don't think there are all that many, certainly not to warrant getting shut of 4 clubs in the belief that simply getting rid of the less intense games would somehow suddenly make the rest of the games more intense and competitive.
As EGW said, the way to improve the league and the intensity of games is to improve the quality of the young players that we produce, and you don't do that by reducing pathways to the top level.
Plus no-one has effectively answered the questions on finances.
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| Quote: bewareshadows "It's all well and good wanting to change the system, but without the cash, nothing will change.<snip>'"
Chicken-and-egg though innit?
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| Quote: gerr'emonside "Another point to this is that in football, fans don't forever keep turning up expecting them to compete because if they don't improve reasonably quickly they get relegated into the next division.
Look at the premiership as proof of this - Teams that spend a long period hanging around the lower parts of the division, trying to stay up (which the past poster referred to), will eventually improve or will run out of luck and be relegated in a relatively short period of time. The bottom 7-8 clubs fighting to avoid relegation will be different teams over the course of every 6-8 years.
We don't have that currently in SL so we have stagnant clubs at the bottom, doing nothing, who consistantly hold the both the top championship and SL clubs back.
Two leagues of 10 where anyone can beat anyone would give us the intensity we need like the NRL, and provide the opportunity for positive promotion and relegation to keep teams at the right level!
I would go as far to say this is needed to save the game....we can't carry on as we have been as its a slow death IMO.'"
That's exactly right. It's often said that the premiership is boring, but in fact there are very few clubs who have nothing to play for in the structure. The premier league is actually a very good example of a structure that works well given the gap between the top and bottom sides. ( You can argue of course about whether it should be made more equal with salary caps, etc. but *if* you're forced to accept the idea of big clubs and small clubs, then they've got it working well).
The big thing of course is getting into Europe at one end and relegation at the other. Mid-table is actually quite a small place and it's usually very late into the season before any club gets into a 'nothing-to-play-for' situation.
As I've said before I'd like to see something akin to the Champions League ( but sadly I can't see the Aussies being motivated to take part ) to help with the top end, making the top 4 a great target.
( as an aside, at the very least, let's make the WCC game for the top placed regular season side - that would slightly rebalance the league/playoff importance. Only slightly, mind.)
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| Quote: Him "Hmmm. Off the top of my head I can think of
The idea is to make the 'league' more competitive. More games against more better teams will improve the quality of the players. Too many games against poor teams is a boring spectacle and doesn't prepare you for the intensity needed to play against tougher opposition.
Quote: Him "Hmmm
As EGW said, the way to improve the league and the intensity of games is to improve the quality of the young players that we produce, and you don't do that by reducing pathways to the top level.'"
You don't improve quality by making MORE opportunity. That's how you improve quantity. More people fighting for less places improves quality. You HAVE to step up or by left behind.
There needs to be a balance between quantity and quality. The current structure requires too many to be top quality, which leaves us with players competing that just aren't good enough (or good enough yet as they're forced to step up too early). The proposed system (if it is two full time leagues) allows for a streamlining of quality and still a platform for quantity in the full time game.
Quote: Him "Hmmm Plus no-one has effectively answered the questions on finances.'"
Because no-one has access to the accounts.
I've offered a simplistic explanation based on the current finances a few pages down.
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| Quote: Dreamer "Funding would be from existing sky funding:
At the moment 14 clubs get £1.2 million each
10 SL1 clubs would still get £1.2 mil each
10 SL2 clubs would get the rest
P.S. to a previous poster. We have no such thing as "a full-time league" or a "part-time league". Clubs just offer the contracts they think they can afford.
A Club operating a system of a core of full-time players with others on half-time or part-time is quite viable and sustainable if that's what they want. In some ways preferable; it can be counter-productive having too many players getting bored with too much time on their hands.
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| Just another thought, would this proposed SL2 be similar to that of the proposed Super Treize in France?
That would be a huge influx of players training full time compared to now. That would increase quality in the pyramid that would hopefully filter in to other parts.
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