And yet the Crusaders failed to win, Winning the GF being the usual route to SL. They won their place in SL because from the viewpoint of the RFL they had the best, most financially sound application of all the clubs outside of SL ( Barring Salford )

Since entering SL they have, Broken the law with regards to Employing foreign nationals. Gone into administration twice, Set some of the lowest attendances ever for SL level Rugby league. Finished bottom of the league and, not sure if this is confirmed failed to pay players pension money.

Its hard to believe some people still support how this club has been handled by the RFL. On the list of terrible decisions by the RFL the Crusaders must be top of the pile. Their fans are a good bunch and i wish them all the best, as i do with any genuine RL supporter but that does not make how this situation has been handled right.

I believe we should expand the game, and on this thread you have seen people give good ideas on ways to do it, but fastracking teams into SL will never work. They did it with London ( A club with a decent history at the time ) and it has failed, if not for the hard work and dedication of one man they would not be here now. Gateshead? Absolute disaster to anyone who isnt a Hull fan. Paris SG? Another complete farce.

The only expansion team that has taken hold is The Cat's, a club from an area of great RL tradition, so its not really an expansion of the sport, more an expansion of the SL. And The Dragons are not setting the world on fire as things stand with bellow average crowds. But the potential is there and it was handled properly.

To answer the Why Widnes questions with regards to who could come up. The answer is simple, we have done every single thing the RFL has asked clubs looking to join SL to do. We have the best Support outside of SL. One of the best stadiums in the game. We have the required Financial clout to make a go of SL. We have one of the best youth systems in the sport which competes with and beats SL opposition almost every week. We Run at a Profit. And we have a coaching set up already at SL standards. We have also done what was asked of every club on the pitch, Win a Cup or appear in the Grand final. If you take the Number of boxes we have ticked and compared it to Barrow Season ticket sales, Widnes would have 4 more Ticks than they have season ticket holders.

Halifax need to put some more groundwork in place and get their academy systems and club in order, as do Fev. If you have ever been to Barrow you would know they are a none starter, Probably just behind Batley on the list of SL hopefuls.

If the RFL ever wakes up and turns RL back into a Sport where winning matters i would be as happy as a as can be, But as it is you have to play the system not the sport.

Yes but the Crusders had no limit on Aussies and packed thier team with them. 6 of which shouldn't have even been in the country and have since been deported and STILL haven't been paid much of what they are owed by the club. And the team they had that season was so blatently over the Salary Cap it was laughable.

Little wonder they made the final

As a hugely passionate fan of RL, the whole structure and governing of the game at the top level depresses me deeply. It really does.
At amateur and grassroots level, the game is going from strength to strength (and that isn't just in England). We are brilliant at this it seems. Innovators.

But FFS, we seem to have people completely out of their depth or not in touch with reality running the game in the elite. And that includes internationally.

The RLIF is a joke. Australian refs refereeing Australian major games? "Ref's call" video refereeing decisions in an international game? Negative comments coming about the tournament from officials during the actual tournament?! Forgetting to bring one of the trophies on offer?! You couldn't make that up. And now the WCC is in doubt because one of the teams "doesn't have to play it"?

Now onto the RFL. Licensing was a brave decision to make, not a stupid one. Totally based on opinions, there's no right and wrong answer there. However, if you're going to make criteria, you make them sound. The RFL have chosen the flimsiest set of criteria completely open to ridicule that doesn't really promote good practise at all because they keep changing them and contradicting them. I said at the time, picking Celtic in 2008 was going to change them into the next London, and it so far is proving correct. And it's a damn shame, because the first move has seen them pick up some good support at Wrexham. But because they've inherited so much debt from a decision that shouldn't have been made, they could go to the wall and it has now brought the whole system into question (a system that was supposed to protect clubs from things like this and reward ones that are better run). There has to be a better way. The RFL are constantly shooting themselves in the foot with half-thought out ideas that are actually doing more harm to the professional game than good.

Licensing isn't exactly a bad idea. It could potentially be a great idea. It's just been executed p*ss poorly and now clubs are losing faith in the system. Once you lose faith in a system, you set yourself up for a revolt. That's the last thing I want to see.

And just to add one last thing, a Championship club HAS to be promoted for 2012. It was written that way. If they postpone that, the RFL are f*cked. Widnes don't (and shouldn't) be worried about merging with anyone. There is a place there for them (they are by far the best run club that meets criteria). Crusaders could still be safe, as the criteria is so objectionable and flimsy that the RFL could kick out who they want if they really wanted to, which isn't how it should be and which is why people are losing support for them.

I couldn't disagree with any of that. I supported licensing well before it was even on the table. I thought the decision to plant a club in Wales was a fundamentally sound decision. The Four Nations, Millenium Magic, play-offs etc. Generally, I've backed pretty much every move the game has made structurally in the last decade.

But I can't bear to see how incompetently those things have been implemented. The embarrassments at the Four Nationas and the disasters at Crusaders are just unacceptable, rank incompetence. The tragedy is that there are plenty of people inside and outside the game who really do want us to retreat to some sort of 1970s Northern theme park and wait for the reunification of rugby on Twickenham's terms. And every episode like this gives them enough ammunition to keep shooting us all in our feet.

Perhaps even more unbearable is the fact that with Crusaders, it's not the first time. Some people argue that the lessons from Gateshead and PSG are that you can't create a professional club without 30 years of hard amateur and semi-pro grind. Personally, I disagree and think it can be done, but only if you actually know that the joint in the middle of your arm is for lifting your drink, not for sitting on. After PSG and Gateshead, would it have been entirely impossible for the RFL to insist on a professional back office to prevent this sort of godawful mess ? We've established a professional rpesence in Wales, begun the conveyor belt of talent development, attracted a reasonable number of paying fans in a new area, and we're probably going to lose the lot simply because there doesn't appear to be anyone at the RFL capable of reading a balance sheet or understanding employment and tax law.

It's tragic. More potential fans, sponsors and players lost to our game because of management incompetence. It'll be the epitaph on our game's gravestone : "Died of self-inflicted wounds". Except we won't have a bloody gravestone because someone will spend the cash for it on a bunch of flowers which will be dead and wilting before the funeral's over.

no they havent,no they havent no they havent made the play offs,,again, no they havent

Just saying things havent happened when they actually have doesn't change history

HTH

The game certainly needs a major reconstruction to get it right and I mean a proper one not these franchises that 'in' principle sound great but 'in' reality have been used purely to being expansion clubs 'in' with little effect showing elsewhere as various rules have still been altered.

The problem is we will get nowhere with Leeis & Wood (two huge failures 'in' previous posts) why? Because they ate not thourogh 'in' what they do, they dint plan they just do! The worse thing they could do was appoint rimmer another expansion at all cost man... Where is the guy to step in and ask questions? Make sure the likes of Cru are ready from the bottom up etc, yes men will only lead to oversights and failure! They need to look more at worse case scenarios rather than best case as only then can you run a proper business middle!

have you any evidence of them happening?

To be honest, I think he was defending Widnes as a club. SOME of the overspending was done before Stephen Vaughan took over, but the tax bill for £500,000 pushed us over the edge. A tax bill of 500,000 as a result of a carousel fraud is hardly an indicator as to wether Widnes as a club are a financial viable rugby club.

Fairly obvious that Widnes' major financial problems started when we were relegated. Now considering the absolute panic and fear by some SL club fans saying they want to sue the RFL if they are omitted next time round saying how no licence is a restriction of trade and they will go bust etc, is it that surprising that Widnes struggled to adjust to life outside SL.

Widnes are an easy target when talking about financial history, but a lot of people forget about who was in charge when we went into adminstration. When people talk about Celtic and Leighton Samuels, the general opinion seems to be it was all his fault and no wonder they fell into trouble. We had an absolute crook running us and yet most people forget that and can only see Widnes = financial trouble. We were well and truely shafted by the last owner, yet a lot of fans say it was our own fault. Widnes only fault was selling to Stephen Vaughan in the first place. When the true picture of Widnes finances emerged, who in their right mind would have come in and cleared the debts thus avoiding adminstration? If Steve O'Connor would have come in 12-18 months earlier, Widnes financial worries would not have arisen.

Link ,link,link,link,link,link,

If you really think i'm going to spend my time looking for them , no , so I'll tell you what , you give us some evidence that all those things didn't happen , it's been a balls up from day one , we all told you they weren't ready , and we were right , yes you are correct , it wasn't RL money that has been wasted , or was it , all those players were being paid for Community work by the RFL , now maybe they did it maybe they didn't , so away you go find the ' evidence ' they did ?

And the opposite is equally true.