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Quote: SmokeyTA "i cant be bothered repeating it again, go re-read what i put'"


Ditto.

Quote: SmokeyTA "we can compete with them, we do compete with them, i dont know why you are pretending we dont,'"


In much the same way that a kid with a slingshot can compete with a tank.

If it comes down to money, we can't compete with them. Which shows you that money isn't everything, because we're still here.

Quote: SmokeyTA "yes, the one where even if they dont make it higher than 3rd division, they will still be paid the same if not more than if they choose SL and become the best player in the world'"


Exactly - they can, by their own targets, fail [iand still make as much money as a SL player[/i. If they succeed, well - we all know what the potential is.

Hence, the salary cap in the SL is pretty irrelevent, because those kids are not aiming for division 3 football or bit parts at a RU club, which would place them in the SL wage brackets. they're aiming for the top, and we can't compete with them at that level.

Quote: SmokeyTA "the salary cap does none of these things, it caps salaries, thats why its a salary cap, its called that because that is solely what it does'"


Again, you're focussing on the [iwhat[/i deliberately ignoring the [iwhy[/i.

This is like arguing that surgery is bad because you're cutting someone open, and ignoring [iwhy[/i you're cutting someone open - "surgery is just cutting someone up, that's solely what it is".

Quote: SmokeyTA "there is no financial prudence in a salary cap, being financially prudent would be to spend what you can sustainably afford regardless of any arbitrary amount set by somebody else'"


Alas, history has shown us that financial prudence cannot be relied upon from sports clubs. Each failure damages the sport as a whole.

Quote: SmokeyTA "we can, and we do, if we didnt compete we wouldnt exist'"


That makes no sense. In those terms I can compete with DHL by lugging around boxes on my own street. I'm not sure any sensible observer would class me as competition to DHL, and nor do I think any sensible observer would claim we can currently offer anything compete with top level football or RU.

Quote: SmokeyTA "it isnt controversial, simply wrong,

RU has had a massive increase in players and support since it went pro, absolutely huge'"


How nice. Shame for your point that I was discussing the [iamateur[/i days, isn't it?

Quote: SmokeyTA "scotland have always been poor, they were however better, when their best players were earning more money playing in the english league, '"


And earning less than Scottish players can do now. So why have they not produced more players of similar quality?

Quote: SmokeyTA "why did you need to edit that quote? is it because it showed the ridiculously contradictory nature of your argument'"


What quote have I edited, exactly? You're banging on about the salary cap putting players off, as they're paid less than some notional amount they "deserve", which is directly contradicted by what I pointed out.

Quote: SmokeyTA "no, we didnt, but shock bloody horror, when he was offered more money he changed sports, crikey moses, what a surprise'"


You tried to claim that the salary cap would prevent us signing players like Gibbs.

I pointed out that he went back RU when it went pro, despite us not having a salary cap at that time. Which supports my argument that it's not the salary cap that stops us competing for such players. It's that we don't have the money or high end competitions that RU and football do.

I find it amazing that you think a RU club would try to sign a young player without waving the World Cup, 6 Nations and Heineken Cup under their noses.

Quote: SmokeyTA "and if we were to offer more money than RU, maybe the Offiah Davies and Gibbs of today would play RL rather than RU,'"


We can't offer more money for players of the calibre of Davies and Gibbs. If they're on the market, certain RU clubs will have more money to throw around. In the past, we had the advantage of signing on fees and above board pay over RU. No longer.

Offiah was an unknown at a minor RU club when he was signed, we could just as easily do the same in his case in the age of the salary cap.

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Founder member of the "Bring back Monie" club.:



Quote: tb "how the hell did a Sts-Leeds final bring Wigan's worst poster onto the VT?'"


I am touched.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: SmokeyTA "not the point really is it'"


It is though isn't it.

Carl Ablett is less important to Leeds as he would be to other clubs. Whilst he's (probably) towards the bottom end of the pay scale at Leeds, he's likely to be higher up that scale at a club like Wakefield or Castleford.

However, he choses to remain at Leeds because finance is not the sole motivating factor.

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[size=100:vu4p4lio] [b:vu4p4lio]Check out [url:vu4p4lio]http://www.fourpointtry.com[/url:vu4p4lio][/b:vu4p4lio] [/size:vu4p4lio]:1114.jpg



Quote: bramleyrhino "It is though isn't it.

Carl Ablett is less important to Leeds as he would be to other clubs. Whilst he's (probably) towards the bottom end of the pay scale at Leeds, he's likely to be higher up that scale at a club like Wakefield or Castleford.

However, he choses to remain at Leeds because finance is not the sole motivating factor.'"


And contrast him to Nick Scruton, who was a Leeds semi-regular and played in the 2008 winning GF side.

Scruton's contract was up at the end of last season and was offered a new deal by Leeds. He either didn't or was advised by his agent not to sign it and held out for more money, which Leeds were either unable or unprepared to give him.

Thus, Nick Scruton left Leeds at the end of last season and signed for Bradford. If you believe some of the rumours, for not much more than £5K a season (but I have no idea of the relative salary amounts) on top of what he was earning at Leeds.

The chances are, had he stayed at Leeds, he'd have been in the side that played in the final last night.

It boils down to the question, what would you rather have ? If it is another £5K in your pocket, then surely he won't be regretting his decision. Or, if it is medals and memories (something money can't buy), then I guess last night might have been quite uncomfortable pegged with the thoughts of 'what could have been'.

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regards and ENJOY your sport Leaguefan "The Public wants what the Public gets" - Paul Weller:icons077e_files/5885-54zedonite-msnicons.jpg



Quote: hopie4ever "Playing for Leeds you dont get paid as much as you might elsewhere but you do get some things money cannot buy, for some thats enough but for others it isnt'"


How to use E-bay? icon_wink.gif

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Quote: Leaguefan "How to use E-bay?
Is this the title of Keith Senior's autobiography? icon_biggrin.gif

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George Bush says 'we are losing the war on drugs'. Well you know what that implies? There's a war going on, and people on drugs are winning it! Well what does that tell you about drugs? Some smart, creative motherfookers on that side.":23517.gif



Quote: SmokeyTA "so its good we have a strange inverse relationship between success and reward?


no, it didnt feature the best players because the best athletes in this country dont play RL, and the best RL players in the world arent in SL'"
What a load of absolute stinking drivle. The argument about attracting other athletes is total garbage, people play the sport they are good at. Kids in scholl don't think "I will play football because footballers earn more money.". They play it beacuase they are good at it and enjoy it. People who design computer games have a great job, and probably earn a fortune doing it. But I don't do that for a living, why? Because I wouldn't actually be any good at it!

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Quote: SBR "The standard below the top two is rising. Clubs are closing in the top two teams. That is better than increasing the gap in standards that ultimately results in lower standards all round, yes.'"

I disagree. I think the final this year was as predictable as ever, and the playoffs were dull dull dull, because everyone knew who was going to be in the final.

A salary cap set at an arbitrary level for all clubs is ridiculous, because as Smokey says, all it serves is do is to artificially lower the standards to artificially even the competition on the field.

And it is still failing to do that.

Effectively Leeds can't reward their players because if they do Cas could go bust.

Brilliant.

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[quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]IMO, Sculthorpe at his peak was better than Hanley was at his.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="nickmanator":3hoggrzp]billy boston in todays game might pinch a spot bringin the cone on and that bein kind[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="robbierotten":3hoggrzp]Imo Sam Tomkins is a very poor mans Danny Brough he is just a average player getting bigged up by the idiots who comentate on sky.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Deano G":3hoggrzp]Jonathan Davies, who is his equal in [Super League] today?[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]Wellens[/quote:3hoggrzp]:7007.jpg



icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif

Lots of old pro-CC chestnuts on this thread:

1. Tedious personal abuse (you can tell when certain people have lost an argument)

2. The CC stops clubs from getting into financial difficulties (obviously I just imagined the GatesHull fiasco, London's repeated issues pre-IL, Bradford's more recent difficulties and the Celtic scenario this season... icon_rolleyes.gif ). Don't any of you pro-CC posters realise the 50% cap has gone, meaning that small clubs can massively overspend? Please don't pretend the CC is a well designed system to prevent clubs from financial difficulties, that is just ridiculous.

3. SL clubs can't afford to play players more, apparently. Rubbish. They haven't even increased the cap in line with inflation, let alone the average rise in earnings. Many pro-CC posters have a real problem with RL players earning what for most professional sportsmen at the top of their sport would be a very modest salary. Its sad to see such envy exposed. I don't have a problem with them earning a really good wage - good luck to our RL stars - they are talented people and its a short career. It obviously suits club owners and the small minded envy of some RL fans though to keep wages down.....

4. Apparently the "level playing field" (it's a bizarre level playing field that sees 2 clubs dominate year after year, but there you go...) is raising standards across the sport. Well, Wigan finished 6th and then made the semi-finals, losing narrowly to Saints, with a team from which only 3 or 4 of our players would have been able to get into the Wigan side of 10 years ago, let alone the sides of 15-20 years ago. The game has been going backwards, particularly in the last 3 or 4 years. At international level we are barely able to field a three quarter of world class, at FB we are light years behind the Aussies and Kiwis, as for the halves we are left desperately hoping that the likes of Tomkins, Eastmond and Myler will make the grade because the present crop just are not up to it. Our forwards are simply not good enough.

I'd like to see a competition that encouraged and rewarded ambition and growth. Unlike the Aussies we don't have a massive player base and big media coverage in this country. The game is getting increasingly marginalised. It needs to grow financially, it needs to grow its fan base and it needs to grow its player base. None of these things are helped by the dumbing down effect of the CC, which pulls all clubs down to the level of the smallest (who are allowed to spend recklessly!!!) and does nothing to encourage or reward player development, growth in crowds or increased financial performance, nor does it control finances properly to ensure clubs don't get into difficulty.

The head in the sand mentality of the pro-CC people on this thread would be amusing if the reality of today's RL and its likely slow decline were not so sad.

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:2690.jpg



Quote: Deano G "Well, Wigan finished 6th and then made the semi-finals, losing narrowly to Saints, with a team from which only 3 or 4 of our players would have been able to get into the Wigan side of 10 years ago, let alone the sides of 15-20 years ago. '"


Pure conjecture. Different game, different players. You can't possibly know who would have got in which team and who wouldn't. Andy Goodway would have been puffing and blowing after 5 minutes of yesterday's GF and Sean Long's "skills" are no match for those of Sean Edwards. Comparisons in this scenario are pointless.

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[quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]IMO, Sculthorpe at his peak was better than Hanley was at his.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="nickmanator":3hoggrzp]billy boston in todays game might pinch a spot bringin the cone on and that bein kind[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="robbierotten":3hoggrzp]Imo Sam Tomkins is a very poor mans Danny Brough he is just a average player getting bigged up by the idiots who comentate on sky.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Deano G":3hoggrzp]Jonathan Davies, who is his equal in [Super League] today?[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]Wellens[/quote:3hoggrzp]:7007.jpg



Quote: littlerich "Pure conjecture. Different game, different players. You can't possibly know who would have got in which team and who wouldn't. Andy Goodway would have been puffing and blowing after 5 minutes of yesterday's GF and Sean Long's "skills" are no match for those of Sean Edwards. Comparisons in this scenario are pointless.'"


OK, so you think the current Wigan side is as good as the one 10 years ago.... icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif

Let's see what happens in the 4 nations. I predict more humiliation for England and the exposing of the myth that player quality in SL is increasing....

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Didn't William Webb Ellis pick up the ball and run, someone should really tell Rugby Union. www.squadbuilder.co.uk:1883.jpg



So those who think the Cap is counter-productive, what are the alternatives?

50% of turnover? No cap at all?

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Quote: Deano G "Let's see what happens in the 4 nations. I predict more humiliation for England and the exposing of the myth that player quality in SL is increasing....'"


You mean [ithe same [/ihumiliation we've had for the last 30 years?

As for the current Wigan side - it's certainly fitter, bigger and stronger than 10 years ago. The only thing that's gone is the ball handling skills - which isn't much needed these days in the bash and barge product which has evolved in SL.

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Quote: Mild Rover "Would you be happy with a two team free market Mega League, containing only Leeds and Wigan? '"


Oh Please icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif
Wire pi$$ all over what Wigan can pay icon_cool.gif

Free market?..
The current recession anyone?

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[color=#000000:3fno8grb]Rugby Union: When entertainment just isn't your thing. [/color:3fno8grb]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_30366.jpg



Quote: littlerich "You mean [ithe same [/ihumiliation we've had for the last 30 years?'"


At least previously we could muster a one off victory against the Aussies or give them a real good run for there money. Beating them in Melbourne in the Tri-Nations being a good example.

But at the World Cup we were demolished and couldn't compete. At least in the past we have competed. Look at the Aussie team. Billy Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Falou etc up against Briscoe, Hall, Shenton and Atkins?

Quote: littlerich "As for the current Wigan side - it's certainly fitter, bigger and stronger than 10 years ago. The only thing that's gone is the ball handling skills - which isn't much needed these days in the bash and barge product which has evolved in SL.'"


Rubbish. This current Wigan side is not fitter and stronger than the past Wigan side ten years ago. The likes of Feka Paleaasina, Mark Riddell, Karl Pryce are drastically unfit and it is the fitness levels at the club that is of major concern and has come under the most scrutiny.

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