I would say in some situations id call a 'ball steal' others not so

simple soloution stringent reworking of the stripping ball in the tackle. if more than one person is in the tackle and the ball is lost pen attacker. simples. this will lead to a reduction in the wrestle tackle and therefore a quicker play the ball.

Erm, so what's to stop the attacker throwing the ball away (or, more likely, losing grip on the ball) as soon as a second man comes in?

nothing. throwing the ball away would be silly cos its a deliberate knock on. however something needs to be done asap. the crusaders game on sat one of the guys was face down on the deck. the ball carrying arm was pulled behind his back so the ball was bascially on the back of his ribs. he still had controll and as the tackler got up he hit the ball with his knee which was forced torwards the tackled players head. there is no way you can retain control in that situation ast the joints of the arm are below the ball.

results knock on given. that is not a knock on. with regards to what i said it would put the advantage back on the ball carrier atm the advantage is firmly on the defending team

if he cant keep hold of it, its a loose carry. if it goes ofrward, its a knock-on.

If a player cant control possession he doesn't deserve it, hence a knock-one and t'other side getting possession. I saw the bit you were talking about - he never had full control of it in the first place, if he did a loose knee wouldn't have dislodged it. The call was the right one IMHO.


It's difficult to call either way and there will never be a failsafe rule, a magic law which is introduced to remove this from the game. We just have to get on and hope the refs get it right most of the time.

As long as we have players who are ready to risk a penalty and attempt to reef the ball out, we'll have this problem. As long as we have players who lose possession (not saying deliberately, their only human after all!), we'll have this problem.

he didn't have full control? could that be anything to do with 2 guys pulling the ball carrying arm behind his back? if a player is able to fully control the ball with 2 guys trying to pull it behind his back he may in your oppinion deserve the possession but in my mind he needs a drugs test. 2 guys in a leveraged position will always force a single players arm around if they try. its lose the ball or break or arm/shoulder what would you chose

which sounds great but that isn't what happened. There is always, shall we say, a modicum of man-handling in a tackle. It's a contact sport of course, and various parts of a tackled player will be handled in the tackle. Doesn't mean he had his arm twisted up behind his back, does it? In fact, are you suggesting the the referee should have awarded a penalty for a chicken wing tackle or perhaps something else as dangeorus?

The players weren't twisting his arm behind his back, in the sense they were deliberately trying to do that, or trying to dislodge the ball by doing so - any contact and movement was just part of a normal tackle. ergo if he cant keep hold in a normal tackle, its a loose carry and he deserves to lose it.

I dont see a lot of broken arms or shoulders as a result of this - tells me it doesnt happen the way you seem to think it does very often. A halfway competent player would be able to keep possession, even in contact, without worrying about if his arm was going to be twisted up behind his back. Something to do with having it in the right position to start with....?

ok fair play, we'll agree to disagree on thisj. however if the tackle is completed for this we'll assume when the ref shouts move and the tackling player "knocks" the ball out of his hand with his leg in this case knee then surely that is interfering with the ball after the tackle and should be penalised.

in political speak - we're moving to a consensus there!

every case should be judged on its own merit of course and there could always be a case for a penalty anytime the defender makes contact as the player is getting up.

But on the flip side, what could we realistically expect the defender to do? He has to get out of the way, but he cant physically move away faster than normal movement would allow and if he doesn't deliberately play at the ball, or in the referees opinion, there was no intent to play at the ball, then surely it should be play on, or rather, knock on? I mean he can't move away at the speed of light or sommit, there is going to be some kind of contact from time to time, they are in very close proximity after all and both are moving as fast as they can.

I'd say, if he knocks the ball out deliberately, penalty. But if a carry is loose enough for normal body movement to dislodge a ball, then I don't think we can penalise a defender when really the attacker is at fault. But, yes, I agree, any interference should be penalised straight away.

ok and i'd say that if as in this case the ball is on the back of his ribs and its knocked out by accident then the tackling player is so close to the tackled player he is impeding him getting up.

as you said its a two way thing it just so happens that it was on sky and the refs at sky games seem to use the video replay facilitiy for the most minor of things that wouldn't get considered at a non sky match.

if they can use the video to check offsides and crossing etc surely they could have used it for instances like this. after all it showed on the big screen and the ref could see it. i know once the decision is given it can't be over turned but it seems like such a waste of a facility that is available to them.

It's funny that some players seem to very rarely lose the ball, no matter how much contact, whereas others drop it almost at the sight of a defender. Holding onto the ball in a tackle is a basic skill which some players seem never to master completely.

This a major bugbear of mine, if they're going to give a knock-on even when the ball goes backwards they may as well just introduce some sort of a "fumble" rule, at least that way we won't get regular half-baked decisions where balls that clearly go backwards are pulled up, whilst every now and again balls that are genuine knock-ons get a play on.

we gotta be careful we dont get what we wish for here!

atm the VR is only for Tries and for 40/20 decisions not for any other decision throughout the game. I think if they were to introduce something like this it'd be the thin end of the wedge - it wouldn't be long and they'd be checking for all kinds of errors and indiscretions. The game would never flow, and itd end up liek Gridiron!

leave it as it is I say!

I think the answer is much more simple than that - at the moment they are quite strict on a knock-on decision; I'd say just be less strict. If it looks like it went back or there is some conjecture or doubt, play on. I'm not saying ignore knock-ons but if it goes back or there is a strong suggestion it went back or if there is genuine doubt, etc etc, call it a knock-on. Then allow play to continue.

I dont think it'd mean many changes, maybe only one in every four would be a play on call as a result but I think thats about right. this way there are no rue chages but the refs are just a little more lenient. I'm not sure if there is an edict from RFL match officials dept which contradicts that but surely its worth a thought, especially when we all want to see the ball in play more. It would lower the number of stoppages as well I think.

its a bugbear of mine too. surely a knock on mean knocked onwards/forwards. when i was at bradford for the crusaders win there was a shocker of a call, knock on given if memory serves me correctly from a kick guy jumps up fluffs the catch and the ball goes easily 3 yds backwards but a knock on was still given