So you think if a franchise point were available the clubs would make no effort to simplify the process of buying your ticket reliably and in good time from the club? That's not really a difficult problem to solve is it?

Would it be impossible, if this were not a hypothetical discussion, for each club to dedicate certain turnstiles to away suporters so that each club could submit independent away support figures?

I'm struggling to think why you thought this might be difficult.

Because that will never happen.
Take the St Helens example, I go in at one end of the ground (the Saints end) and walk round once in the ground and hundreds do the same depending on where you park. All this dedicated turnstyle lark is silly, at the wire ground there might be 300 wire fans and 3200 Saints fans, are they going to only allow saints to walk through half the turnstyles? but what happen if, like at wire/wigan, loads of wire fans end up in the away end when it wasnt expected, are they going to make certain fans queue up for ages because they're only allowed through certain turnstyles. What about those away fans that prefer a side on view, and there's usually a few at places like wrexham for the same price, how do we count them?

I'd never buy from the club shop because, like a hell of a lot of people, I can't be bothered, offer me a fiver off (aint gonna happen) and I might consider it

What a silly idea, really.

If you don't want it to work, it won't work. If there is no incentive to make it work it won't work. None of what you said is insurmountable at all.

What we need to do is start from some common ground. Can we agree that:

Any given crowd is made up of home and away supporters?
To increase the crowd size either home support needs to increase or away support needs to increase or both need to increase.?
Higher crowds equates to higher revenues and a more enjoyable experience for all supporters and both are desirable outcomes?

I agree completely.
But there's certain stadiums where this just won't work.

I'd much rather see, like Wire did for Crusaders last week and im sure others have done, cheap tickets offered for certain games to encourage supporters to travel. You could get match ticket and coach travel from the Crusaders exclusively for £18 last week and look at the crowd figure as Crusaders brought more than many SL teams. A similar thing was in operation for the Quins game and will be for the Salford game, some would argue a club loses money, I would argue for Warrington to have an 11,500 average after 3 games, 2 of which were quins and Cru, this system is the way forward.

Again, rather than making it the responsibility of the away team with a franchise point, I'd rather put the ball back in the Home teams court. If they want a full away end, there's the way to go, the supporters WILL travel, some of these wrexham blokes had seen maybe 3 league games in their life, but I wouldnt punish a club on it's away fans when it depends on so so many factors

We have managed to put a man on the moon, we have mobile phones bouncing signals off satelites, we can invent such technological marvels as the internet and World Wide Web. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to figure out which are the away fans and which are the home fans.

I don't actually believe that there is much the home side can do to encourage away fans. I support Hull KR and our ground is often put forward as a major reason why away fans won't travel. But away fans don't travel in significantly more numbers to the KC a modern, covered, all seating stadium with excellent views everywhere.

The reason I say the onus should be on the away team to increase travelling numbers is that the away team has a big advantage. They know who their fans are and can consequently communicate more easily and directly with them, and they are the ones who will be rewarded with a franchise point, not the home team. As a fan of the away team I could feel that I am doing my bit to help with the franchise bid by travelling to watch my team. As it is, travelling rewards competitors in the franchise process, that's contrary to maximising crowds surely?

This way, each club would be rewarded for maximising their own support home and away, and every club would benefit from increased revenue. That's a win win.

You travel to support your team Bill, not because of 'franchise points'.

Agreed for some supporters, but mostly they don't travel at all. For some this may encourage going away a few times or a few more times (than they already do) a year although the main reason to travel (for those that don't) would likely be down to intiatives run by the club to encourage greater travelling numbers, not, admittedly, the franchise point. Again, as it stands travelling supporters are enhancing rival franchise bids (in some small way), that doesn't make sense. How should me supporting my team actually be potentially detrimental to my club's SL status?

Furthermore, if away support was accurately identified, then by default home support is accurately identified. There could then be a clear measure of a clubs success in increasing and retaing its own support, not benefiting by occasional influxes of away supporters.

As a further note, it would still be in the interests of the home club to ensure that away supporters are well catered for, that would not change. There is little point in getting increased supporters one year only for them to have such a miserable experience that no amount of cajoling will get them there the next.

I think if people cared enough to travel soleley because of 'franchise points', they would probably have travelled anyway. I hope all clubs can increase travelling support, but a greater home support will have a knock-on effect on this anyway and that should be every club's priority, not relying on away fans.

No, you've not read my post properly, even before I edited it. The main reason more supporters would travel is because their club incentivises them to. The franchise point would I agree be an unlikely reason, in isolation, to travel.

Good, we agree then

You've kind of missed my point before. The away club can't really do a lot for example if the home club isn't 'game'. A club can't really lay on incentives for another clubs ground. I think it would be a lot better if clubs worked together to encourage fans to travel, e.g. special offers.
The best offer yet imo was the joint decision of all SL clubs to allow junior ST holders to travel for free. I genuinely noticed a HUGE improvement in away following once this happened.
Basically what I'm getting at is if a home club encourages people to travel they will, and that then reflects on the home club, the only way you could track that is results on the day but if clubs work together, like wrexham and the wire did, the results are there to see.
KR don't get a lot of away fans, not because for example my club Wire don't travel, but imo because of what KR offer an away supporter. Where your argument then comes in is flawed because as a Wire supporter its hard travelling 150 miles (not actually sure on the distance) across the M62 on a friday night to the KC (your example used), if played on a sunday afternoon imo you'd have a huge difference in numbers compared to KR, my opinion of course.
I think it's up to a home club to encourage people to travel, we may agree to disagree on this point but at a lot of grounds it would be very hard to accurately check, as discussed before.

We're actually not too far apart on our thinking, all I'm doing is adding an incentive for the away club also to ecourage fans to travel and in doing so aligning the incentive with rewards. At the moment if Wire (for example) took an extra 1000 fans away with them in what way would they benefit? Well they would get some small income from fans that bought tickets through the club, maybe £2/3000? The home team however gets tens of thousands of pounds in income (a boost to their turnover and solvency based franchise points) aswell as a boost to their average crowd size (over 10,000 and over 40% capacity based franchise points). That gives no realistic benefit to Wire for independantly running a campaign to increase travelling support.

You're right there is much more that SL as a whole could do, like the free entry for junior ST holders, that benefit the game as a whole. If what I propose were taken up (as if ) I think there would be lots more reciprocal arragements between clubs in order to encourage more travelling support.

You just can't judge away support fairly for a franchise point. There are too many mitigating circumstances.

Distance from ground, quality of the ground, price of the ground, percentage of home fans.

You can't sell tickets "cheaper to away fans" at most grounds. What's to stop home fans buying them?

Hence why I suggested the incentive is best done in the ' Travel ' aspect of attending away matches

This is exactly what I was trying to get at really.
The 10% the clubs keep is fair but that still doesnt encourage me for example to buy from the shop, it'd too far out of my way in a day but realistically it's the only fair way you COULD judge it