The difference is, if Halifax or Bradford got into Super League, it wouldn’t make mainstream media. Nobody outside of the same old would care, even many in RL circles wouldn’t bat an eye lid. Gate tickets earn nothing. If you think your club survives on tickets you’re deluded. It’s sponsors, screen time, corporate support and wealthy providers.

We’ve all moaned for years about the lack of coverage, if you have to buy column inches then so be it. Wigan bought names, actually they were attractions, in the 80’s. They were, and are still, a brand because of that.

If someone wants to plough in their money, good luck to them. Stop moaning and enjoy getting a bit more coverage, enjoy seeing SBW included in your season ticket price and enjoy a trip to watch your team in one of the best sports city’s in the world.

If the average price of attending a game in SL is say £20, then the 2019 season saw in excess of £30,000,000 taken on the gate at SL games including play-offs and the Grand Final.
£2,500,000 average gate income per club is more than £1,800,000 TV money that those clubs receive. I am all for off the cuff remarks when they are accurate, but yours is not...by any stretch even remotely that.

Sponsors you say?
HKR are sponsored by a local company who specialise in Domestic and Commercial Drain Cleaning in the Hull Area......Wigan are sponsored by another local company, as are LEEDS BUILDING SOCIETY on the shirts of the Rhinos....do you really think these firms are trying to grab customers in London by sponsoring the local RL side ?

I'll give you wealthy owners and the occasional corporate bone being thrown in, but gate receipts are a key part of the turn over of successful SL clubs. If you doubt me, look at the NRL or even super Rugby Union clubs that are frantically trying to replace the fans they alienated a decade ago when they all thought the TV cash could keep them afloat.

All I did was disprove this. £30,000,000 on the door is about £8,000,000 more than the clubs get from SKY....no PRO/ANTI wolfpack rhetoric, just cold hard data.......

clubs like Leeds, who turn over good money will still earn more on the gate than any other single avenue of funding......£3,300,000 on the gate is going to be more than any other avenue isn't it?
London only took 600k on the door last year and their #1 source was Hughes, but other than them, salford, Hudds and Wakey, the other sides all took more cash on the turnstyle than they did from SKY.....

It also costs more money to get that income. Top line, that’s correct, but to open the doors costs money. Banging on about away teams not bringing supporters is irrelevant. I’d rather have a progressive club with ambition getting the game coverage that an age-old plodder who bring 500 fans.

I for one will be looking forward to watching Toronto. Regardless of the away end is empty. And the media interest in them, and hundreds of pages of debate on here, proves it is worthwhile for the sport, given that they are not taking any handouts from the game.

Well said! You are right on the money, if you will pardon the pun.

Yes of course we hold that against them. All SL clubs were required to develop players and that was, and remains through the "foundations" the SL clubs run that encourage and develop local grass roots RL. All English SL clubs have them and staff them. Why not look them all up?

You won't find such a system at Toronto, all you will find is a club that buys all it's players from here, or players from the NRL. Catalans don't seem have a junior development system that works either and they don't do academy anymore and an even larger proportion of their squad is now non-french (and the first choice team has only the odd Frenchman in it). Toulouse would not have any French SL players as the best go to Catalans, then Ottawa, New York, Montreal and Vancouver - the latter two who Perez revealed are in the pipeline - would also not have any home grown players.

So come on then. you support a Transatlantic league? Explain it to me? How many clubs will it be? Who will be in it? How will it get a TV deal?? What will happen to the academies and the local junior game when you shut down Wakey, Cas, HKR, Fartown, etc to make way for these overseas clubs????. Given 80% of hull fans are not keen on it which way will crowds go here??

I bet you won't answer this properly. And finally this nonsense about perez has left the club so the club aren't beholden to "his" business plan, it really is naive to pull this trick. Perez explained on behalf of TWP what TWP's business plan was. They were accepted to the RFL (and NOT Superleague) on this business plan and they did not and by their own admission will not deliver it. They should have been thrown out but a legal agreement sustains them 2020, and 2021 if they avoid relegation.

Now think about why New York who are seling off their last bits of merchandise and and Ottawa whose CEO has gone to Bradford haven't made any moves to join the game here?? Think about why TWP aren't recruiting many players, and are tying up existing players to 2021 and no further??

You mean the "glamour"? Let me know exactly what financial income, or quality players they bring to the sport as a whole by being glamorous??

I can do the maths on the likely reduced crowds here and put a monetary value to it. We must compare notes at the end of the season though. The "double header" will be used to convince us all TWP have a massive pulling power.....

Thank you for your reply.

Of course I want expansion. It was defined by Mr. Perez himself that TWP would expand the player pool and expand the TV deals available to the game thus providing the resources to gradually push back the contraction of the game. We stood at 14 clubs at one point, then cut to 12 and in recent years 10 has been often suggested. But McDermott has recently admitted that there will be no new players and no TV money from North America. So if TWP, Ottawa, New York and Toulouse want in then we will have to remove, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Salford and HKR. That is geographical expansion of course, but this only adds massive travelling costs and stops fans going to away games. It's not business expansion. It also ends up being "substitution" as clubs here with development foundations and academies are substituted for clubs without academies which means a "contraction" for the player development system.

I want expansion but you don't seem to be able to grasp what we have is "substitution" leading to "contraction". Substitute the four "expansion" clubs for the four "traditional clubs" and what happens then? I'll tell you if you have that capacity to be open minded about it, the development system for players will "contract" and crowds will "contract".......discuss??

Firstly, the argument that "all SL clubs are required to produce players" isn't accurate in the slightest. There is no requirement for clubs to produce players, only that they adhere to federation/overseas rules. Producing your own players is, of course, a way to do that, but it's far from a "requirement", to use your word.

We have English clubs that have barely produced a handful of elite players in the past two decades. We have clubs that have had a 120+ year head start on Toronto that don't run an academy structure. We have clubs that, despite having more than enough time to get it right, have academies that are classed as "requires improvement". If we're going to talk about clubs not producing talent, let's look at the whole picture - not just one club that's three and a half years old. Many clubs don't have a "junior system that works" - and they've had much, much longer than Toronto or Catalans to make it work.

The Catalans do have an academy, for what it's worth

I've said this plenty of times, but for some reason you seem to want to keep pushing a different agenda. I support expansion of the sport so that this sport can go on to be successful in terms of the product on the field and its security off it. Whether that is a Trans-Atlantic league or not, I don't mind, but clubs in North America are one potential avenue - an avenue with an awful lot of risk (as you know I have repeatedly acknowledged), but an avenue none the less.

If there were ways to grow this sport by "focusing on the heartlands", I'll happily support that but so far nobody on this forum, yourself included, who expresses such a sentiment has come up with a coherent suggestion for how "focusing on the heartlands" changes the sport's current trajectory.

But taking on your hypothetical Transatlantic league, and trying to "answer it properly".....

On how many clubs there should be in this league, there's no possible way to guage that at present. Toronto, the only North American club currently in existence, haven't kicked a ball in the Super League competition yet, we don't know what the appetite is from the audiences we want to reach and we don't know what the appetite is from sponsors on both sides of the Atlantic once they see what a Transatlantic SL looks like.

But if having North American clubs helps to raise standards in areas such as fan engagement, media engagement, commercial rights, etc, then bring it on. The sport sorely needs it, despite what 80% of Hull Daily Mail readers might think.

Who else will be in such a league? Well, frankly, the best clubs for the league. What the elite league of the sport should be about is those clubs that can be successful on and off the field - growing crowds, growing media interest, growing profile, ensuring that the players can earn a living that at least keeps pace with inflation - everything that Super League isn't doing at present. If that doesn't pass your test as a "proper answer", then I'm sorry but it's because its a question where there isn't a "proper answer" because many of the clubs talked about in this context (not by me, I might add) don't exist yet. Let's start with the one we've got, and see where it takes us.

I have never, either, said that a TV deal is a sure bet. I have said that being present in North America gives us a right to knock on doors but, from that point on, it's down to Toronto and Super League to make the case to those broadcasters. What TW have done however is gain the sport a level of media interest and discussion it has never had before.

As for what happens to the junior systems at the clubs / areas you mention. Firstly, let's acknowledge that participation is already falling. We therefore need to do something to change that trajectory.

Secondly, nobody has provided any tangible evidence that not having (for the sake of example) Wakefield in SL would result in a fall in junior participation at clubs in the Wakefield region. Sure, we have anecdotes, but there's nothing concreate to link participation at junior level with a presence in SL. There are lots of reasons why participation is falling - different distractions, demographic changes, RL's poor profile, competition from other sports, poor coaching, poor facilities, parental concerns about head injuries - whether the local professional club is in SL is probably way, way down the list.

Thirdly, do you not think that the opportunity to play professional RL in cities like Toronto or New York would be a huge incentive and inspiration to young people? It certainly would have been to teenage me back in the day.



Have you never been involved in a business where the business plan or strategy has changed as things develop? As theories and ideas have been proven right or wrong? If so, you've lived a very sheltered life.



Toronto have just signed one of the biggest stars in world rugby and, in addition, a two-time Grand Final winner.

As a promoted club, they've had the same challenges in recruiting as every other promoted club - in not knowing the league they would be competing in as players entered the market during the summer. If the narrative has been that it's hard for newly promoted clubs to attract players, surely that has to apply to TW as well?

They also have a squad that appears to be well-equipped for SL as it stands. What more do you suggest they need?

Short-term contracts are common and, frankly, given the level of acrimony that has greated TW from various quarters of RL, would you make many long-term decisions?

As for NY and Ottawa, I don't know of the issue there but if you have credible links I'll happily look at them. My understanding is that Perez is at Bradford as a consultant to Wood, but will step back to Ottawa when the take on Hemel's licence next year. It seems though as if you're saying that its a bad thing that NY are selling merchandise?

Do you have any evidence from Sky saying this?

The argument that Sky would prefer Bradford, Leigh or Widnes in SL over TW or Toulouse seems to be based on the suggestion that there is huge latent demand from people in those towns for Sky Sports, if only those clubs were in SL.

Do you seriously believe that there is a significant proportion of existing and potential RL fans in those areas who, despite being willing and able to subscribe to Sky Sports, currently don't because Bradford, Widnes and/or Leigh aren't in SL? A big enough pool of people to make or break a TV deal? I think it's utterly fanciful to believe that.

Sky is not out only potential customer when it comes to TV rights. We had a deal with BeIn, until the great negotiator Elstone stuck his oar in.

They will however cost each club a decent slice of cash.

To take a full squad + associated staff to Toronto for 3/4 days isn't going to come cheap.
Certainly a trip (for Wire) to Widnes on a Friday night will be a hell of a lot less than travelling halfway around the planet for 80 mins of RL.

I'm sure that "we" have thought forward all of the scenarios for a successful Toronto and just like Catalan, they will be immune to the short notice fixture changes and Thursday nights, that affect all of the other clubs in SL.

You rightly say that they aren't taking a slice of the Sky money but, IIRC, they (Toronto) were expecting to line up a TV deal, which seems to have gone with the wind and of all of the clubs in SL they will be most reliant on their consortium pumping in $millions every season to keep the ship afloat.
With their squad spend, especially with the SBW contract, they will be spending at an unsustainable rate but, tat is of course their prerogative.

Although I dont think that they belong in a "European" competition, I'm looking forward to seeing them both home and away, although the trip over there will be a "one off", rather than a regular thing.
Trips to Frances are peanuts compared to Toronto and beyond the means of most RL fans, which is a real shame.
Fundamentally, it still seems crazy to try and spread the game to a new continent 3500 miles away, when the UK "market" remains untapped.

OK, so let's all play in empty stadiums then and save the clubs some money!!!

I'm sure SKY or another broadcaster would continue to fund a sport that had no physical fans attending