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Quote: Mugwump "Don't flatter yourself, mate. The serious answer is - I'd completely forgotten. These days my time in here is strictly limited.
'"


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Quote: Mugwump "So, it goes a bit deeper than that. Thank you. '"

Yes. Not sure why you didn't get it first time around.

Quote: Mugwump "I think it because your reasoning is pretty contradictory. You claim Rugby League is far more skilled today. I point out that it is undoubtedly stronger in facets of the game we have chosen to concentrate on - size, strength, fitness etc.'"

But you are make an erroneous assumption that other "skill" elements of the sport have been neglected, but still not given any reasoning for that belief.

Quote: Mugwump " but since greater emphasis was placed on specialisation in the fifties and sixties'"

Was it? Didn't players work hard on size, strength fitness etc back then? Could it just be that as we have got better at training strength stamina and speed, we have also got better at training skill?

Quote: Mugwump "itas we regularly hear older players today congratulating modern players on their skills, strength etc. '"

Yet you claim that today's players are entirely lacking in specialist skills.
Despite all the skills Keiron Cunningham had, the only element you refer to of his game is his physical ability.

Quote: Mugwump "You intuitively KNOW that players today are far more skilled in all facets of the game. '"

No intuition at all. Simply observation.

Quote: Mugwump "Kicking out of the hand? Drop goals? By all means try to argue the distance kicking I've seen at Knowsley Road in the last four or five years of Sean Long is better than anything that's gone before it. '"


That's it? One single player at one single team? And you want to compare him to all of history? That's your case?
How does the kicking out of hand at Warrington games compare to yesteryear?

Quote: Mugwump "In any case this is incidental as you have still not successfully argued why I shouldn't include skills that we no longer concentrate on. Talk about stacking the deck in your own favour.'"


Your previous reference to hooking in the scrum was not a skill that we no longer concentrate on, it was a skill that is entirely obselete and irrelevant.
It's like lambasting modern taxi drivers for a lack of skill because they can't handle a team of horses pulling a carriage.

I've taken another look back over your posts in this thread. You do seem convinced that the modern player is only about athletic ability rather than skill. It's as if you have been so blinded by the incredible athleticism that you can't see the skill. Look beyond the athleticsm and you will see the skill is there in far greater scope and level than ever before.

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Quote: Paul Thexton "

It was a genuine question the answer to which I don't know. Attendances back then were pretty big. But did this make us - by today's standards - commercially successful? The game might well have been on the verge of bankruptcy. Perhaps older members can shed some light on this question?

Quote: Paul Thexton "The thing where I disagree with others on this forum is that the lack of attractiveness RL seems to suffer from is not, necessarily, because the national press outlets are colluding to smother coverage of the game, I would say that if the game appeared to the casual observer to be better supported by a bigger volume of people, then they would have less of an excuse for a lack of column inches. I genuinely think if RL wants to improve it's income, and thus provide a more secure footing for further development, academies, and god-forbid supporting the local amateur teams, which I believe all pro/semi-pro clubs should be attempting to do (not necessarily with cash, but offerirng coaching/resources where practicable, etc), then the first thing they should be doing is attempting to increase the number of people turning up to support.'"


That's going to be very difficult. The economy is on its knees and I doubt we will see any long-term improvement for many years. One of the big problems is the cost of fuel. As it becomes increasingly scarce (and thus increasingly more expensive) we will see the effective radii of people's ability to travel shrink more and more. Where once you could afford to travel from Merseyside/Cheshire to Hull without worrying about costs now (for people on or around average wage with family or other commitments) it's shrunk to Castleford. When petrol hits £2 it might be down to Huddersfield - and so on.

It'll be hard enough for clubs to cover the shortfall in away fans without the inevitable attrition rate of home spectators in economically depressed zones who with each Tory tax and supermarket price hike draw nearer and nearer to the point where matchday/season tickets are no longer possible under the home budget.

Prices are very, very high. I understand precisely why they are high - but League doesn't have an enormously affluent demographic it can draw upon like football. People are really struggling and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. With the best will in the world I can't see current gate figures lasting for much longer.

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Quote: ThePrinter "The basis of this thread was obviously Bradford's recent troubles, but i don't believe the mess they're in or the similar woes Wakefield faced last year are down to the state of just rugby league only but the way clubs from all sports have mismanaged since the millenium.
In football we all know the plight of Leeds United, Portsmouth have gone from FA Cup winners to 2 administrations in around 4 years, even Liverpool of all teams were looking dodgy just over a year ago. In cricket some counties are paying the price for chasing Test matches and doing their grounds up to achieve that.
Owners of sport teams have horribly managed clubs hoping for success or just plain not had a good balanced structure in place.'"
Point in question. Rich bloke (sent down for money laundering) blindly patriotic for his beloved home town soccer team going absolutely no where fast,builds 25k stadium in a fit of overly zealous optimism.The team Darlington now languishing in the relegation zone of the conference league averaging 1.5 - 2k attendances,so yes the story of Darlington is a lesson in pretty bad management

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Quote: Richie "But you are make an erroneous assumption that other "skill" elements of the sport have been neglected, but still not given any reasoning for that belief.'"


How hard can this be? I'm talking specifically about skills that are bound to rules of the game which have changed and consequent specialised skills. Listen to someone like Alex Murphy talking about the techniques he used in combination with Vince Karalius around the scrum base. Few of those skills would be of use today as they were necessitated by contested scrums. Consider tackling techniques such as the Cumberland Throw. You cannot deny it is a skill and one that is very difficult to execute properly.

Quote: Richie "Was it? Didn't players work hard on size, strength fitness etc back then? Could it just be that as we have got better at training strength stamina and speed, we have also got better at training skill?'"


Coaches worked within the rule structures of the day to deliver players best suited to gain a competitive advantage. Just as is the case today. Some coaches concentrated more on specialist skills. Others concentrated more on fitness. At Saints there is all manner of history relating to coaches who did one or the other at different periods.

It's not surprising that we have got better at strength, stamina and speed given that a) we're fully pro and b) we prize such attributes highly.

It's arrogant beyond belief to claim that we are now better at training given that your evidence is improvement to attributes we prize and thus concentrate on. A championship-winning coach back then could just as easily claim he is the best at delivering players that excel in the prized attributes of his day. He might also point out that his players go out and beat Australia - in Australia - whereas ours don't.

It's like saying Alexander the Great can't hold a candle to Wellington because the latter has cannons.

Quote: Richie "Yet you claim that today's players are entirely lacking in specialist skills.
Despite all the skills Keiron Cunningham had, the only element you refer to of his game is his physical ability.'"


I said Keiron Cunningham is entirely lacking the specialist skills hookers back in the sixties were expected to possess in contested scrums. If you're stupid enough to think this means I consider him unable to pass the ball out of the dummy half I can't help you.

It is perfectly reasonable to emphasise Cunningham's physical attributes because without size, strength and speed he would be what?

Quote: Richie "No intuition at all. Simply observation.'"


Really? How much old rugby league do you watch?

Quote: Richie "That's it? One single player at one single team? And you want to compare him to all of history? That's your case? '"


Not one player at all. Prior to last season Saints' attitude to kicking (out of hand, goal kicking, 40/20 etc.) has, on the whole, varied between abysmal and average since the retirement of Tommy Martyn. Saints won two titles with some of the worst goal-kicking ever seen at the club. Hardly an advert for superior training.

Quote: Richie "How does the kicking out of hand at Warrington games compare to yesteryear?'"


Briers is a better kicker than Long. But Warrington have had plenty of good kicking halves over the years - including Murphy, whose kicking was a major factor in Warrington's success when he was player-coach.

Quote: Richie "Your previous reference to hooking in the scrum was not a skill that we no longer concentrate on, it was a skill that is entirely obselete and irrelevant.
It's like lambasting modern taxi drivers for a lack of skill because they can't handle a team of horses pulling a carriage.'"


I'm not lambasting anyone. It's you who can't cope with the possibility that older players might be just as skilful albeit in different aspects of the game. If someone points out this fact you hide behind the nonsense argument "THOSE skills are obsolete". Which contradicts your position by first agreeing that players were skilled in different aspects of the game but then attempts to squirm out of it by judging the past in today's context. Which is nonsensical because players from the past have equal right to judge today's RL by yesteryear's standards. Or are they obsolete, too? 4.71337890625:5
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