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In the context of a league with no relegation 4 points cannot be regarded as a hefty fine. It does not in my opinion reflect the seriousness of going into administration when financial stability is supposed to be one of the cornerstones of the franchise system and hardly acts as a deterrent to financial mismanagement by other clubs in the future. At this stage in the proceedings the apparent disparity between the penalties for going bust owing £1.25million (lose 4 points next season) and not having a shiny new stadium but otherwise being a stable, even profitable club (exclusion from SL for at least 3 years with the consequent loss of support, income etc) are too great.
Its going to be very hard for the RFL to justify any club other than Crusaders losing its franchise next year and unless they simply admit that the expansion clubs are subject to different rules than the heartland clubs I think the only way they will get out of the mess they are creating is to change their minds yet again and have a 15 or 16 team league in 2012.

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This isn't a sleeping giant, it's a giant! Denis Betts Nov 2010 Twitter: @JoeyViking:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45011.jpg



Quote: Pepe "
I think where the problem lies, is in the RFL pretending that they were one of the best 14 clubs, when they couldn’t possibly have been. If they RFL had just been honest, and explained that the extra two places had been negotiated with Sky, in order to accommodate one heartland club and one expansion club and that the Celtic Crusaders were going to be fighting it out with other expansion clubs for that spot, there wouldn’t be so much animosity towards them.

At the end of the day, it’s not the fault of the Celtic Crusaders or their fans. It is the ham-fisted, incompetent and dishonest way the RFL operate – they just can’t be honest. That is where the blame should lie.
'"


Pretty much sum's up the whole Crusaders fiasco in my mind. When put into SL the RFL said they were amongs the best 14 CLUBS (i.e. set ups etc) in the European game, that's why they got in, not just as expansion because they were the best suited.

However since then we get talk of a new club, forming foundations, needing to be excempt from the O/S quota, needing assistance, passing the buck on debt elsewhere. Moving location and set for 3rd name in 3 seasons... does that sound like one of the best 14 clubs in Europe? No didn't think so and there in lies the problem.

RFL should just grow a backbone and say look we are giving full support to clubs X, Y & Z due to expansion and that's that. Make them fully excempt from farnchises as let's face it they are anyway and yes we'd all kick off about it initially but at least in the future we'd know were we stand. And if they want to eventually put Toulouse in SL just do it! Don't mess about creating and changing criteria to put them in, making other sides jump through hoops for no apparent reason.

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[quote="OFFTHECUFF":1xb0p6sn] Wish i could watch a team like Leigh. :CLAP: [/quote:1xb0p6sn] [quote="Steve":1xb0p6sn] Dislike Leigh with a passion, but they are a million miles ahead of any other club in this league, a sad fact. [/quote:1xb0p6sn]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_24148.jpg



Quote: J20 "Pretty much sum's up the whole Crusaders fiasco in my mind. When put into SL the RFL said they were amongs the best 14 CLUBS (i.e. set ups etc) in the European game, that's why they got in, not just as expansion because they were the best suited.

However since then we get talk of a new club, forming foundations, needing to be excempt from the O/S quota, needing assistance, passing the buck on debt elsewhere. Moving location and set for 3rd name in 3 seasons... does that sound like one of the best 14 clubs in Europe? No didn't think so and there in lies the problem.

RFL should just grow a backbone and say look we are giving full support to clubs X, Y & Z due to expansion and that's that. Make them fully excempt from farnchises as let's face it they are anyway and yes we'd all kick off about it initially but at least in the future we'd know were we stand. And if they want to eventually put Toulouse in SL just do it! Don't mess about creating and changing criteria to put them in, making other sides jump through hoops for no apparent reason.'"


Well said eusa_clap.gif .... you smelly viking icon_wink.gif

tb
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Quote: J20 "Pretty much sum's up the whole Crusaders fiasco in my mind. When put into SL the RFL said they were amongs the best 14 CLUBS (i.e. set ups etc) in the European game, that's why they got in, not just as expansion because they were the best suited.'"


No. They got in because they were one of the best 14 BIDS.

Quote: J20 "However since then we get talk of a new club,'"


We do? No. It's the same club.


Quote: J20 "forming foundations, '"

?
Quote: J20 "needing to be excempt from the O/S quota,'"

Again no. Different quota rules has always been in place for expansion clubs, for a set and defined period. It's definitely not something that's happened 'since then'


Quote: J20 " needing assistance, passing the buck on debt elsewhere'"


Thank god no established heartland clubs have ever gone into administration.

Quote: J20 "Moving location and set for 3rd name in 3 seasons..'"


and?

Quote: J20 "does that sound like one of the best 14 clubs in Europe? No didn't think so and there in lies the problem.'"


In your opinion, an opinion based in large on misunderstandings and untruths.


Quote: J20 "RFL should just grow a backbone and say look we are giving full support to clubs X, Y & Z due to expansion and that's that. Make them fully excempt from farnchises as let's face it they are anyway and yes we'd all kick off about it initially but at least in the future we'd know were we stand. And if they want to eventually put Toulouse in SL just do it! Don't mess about creating and changing criteria to put them in, making other sides jump through hoops for no apparent reason.'"


You seem to be mistaking this for the 'should the RFL be more transparent' or 'Crusaders in administration' threads. These discussions are being done to death there … this one's about the points deduction.


On which:

On the face of it, I'd have gone for a six point deduction myself … I'd like to see the reasoning for the four point deduction before I form a judgement on it. Unfortunately, the story on the RFL website gives no reasoning or quote from the RFL, simply comments from the club.

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[quote="King Street Cat":1wa9s43t]Some might look at this as being harsh but I think it's fair. When are the Rugby League going to stop persisting with this fantasy expansion. If it hasn't worked by now, it never will! I'm all for reaching out to a wider audience with our game but not at the expense of historical clubs in the homelands.[/quote:1wa9s43t]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6731.jpg



Quote: Pepe " Widnes were not in a worse situation than the Crusaders. Unlike the Crusaders, Widnes did not plan a month ahead, with the connivance of the RFL, to go into administration. They did not have the benefit of being able to set up another trading company with the blessing of the RFL and have there players kept on contract and paid for by the RFL.

Widnes did not go into liquidation, this is an outright lie spread about these boards by tb. Once a sporting club enters administration, their playing staff contracts are no longer valid. The players have the option to either stay or leave. Some stayed and some left. Unlike the Crusaders, there was no new trading name and no RFL money to pay the players, while they went through the administration process.'"
Fair enough if they weren't in liquidation, I think it's still difficult to argue that they weren't in a worse state than Crusaders though. Crusaders entered adminsitration and registered a new trading name to clear a multitude of debts from the previous owners, they are stable, as you say it was a planned administration because it would be impossible for the club to operate properly with the weight of debts that weren't anything to do with them. Presumably that's why the RFL were lenient. Widnes on the other hand were in dire straits, players were leaving and as far as I'm aware the club was going out of existence until O'Connor stepped in. Any amount of help from the RFL would have been pointless as there was no owner and the club couldn't function. It's pretty irrelevant now as Widnes have proven themselves to be stable and will be granted a license this time. But when the initial decision was made, it was only a few weeks after this had happened, there was no guarantee that O'Connor was in for the long haul etc, so I don't feel the RFL were wrong to leave Widnes out until they could prove themselves, which they have. Remember there was no guarantee that Leighton Samuel would turn out to be a crook and Crusaders would have been mismanaged the way they were in the South either, they were in a stronger position off the field than Widnes at the time.

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kcab sfrawdder Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done But he with a chuckle replied That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried. So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin On his face. If he worried he hid it. He started to sing as he tackled the thing That couldn’t be done, and he did it!:9005.jpg



Quote: "headhunter wrote:No, because Blackwood didn't play. The fact is that 12 are former or current Crusaders players. Lennon and James qualified previously, but the rest didn't. I don't care if you don't like Crusaders, and a positive impact on the game is probably seen as a negative by someone like you, but surely you can understand that kids playing at a higher level

So they are ?

And the number of games they played for the Crusaders last season is ?

Still waiting , or is the truth not quite so positive

Name the players and the number of games they played for the Crusaders IN SL ?

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[quote="King Street Cat":1wa9s43t]Some might look at this as being harsh but I think it's fair. When are the Rugby League going to stop persisting with this fantasy expansion. If it hasn't worked by now, it never will! I'm all for reaching out to a wider audience with our game but not at the expense of historical clubs in the homelands.[/quote:1wa9s43t]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6731.jpg



Quote: Starbug "So they are ?

And the number of games they played for the Crusaders last season is ?

Still waiting , or is the truth not quite so positive

Name the players and the number of games they played for the Crusaders IN SL ?'"
Somebody has already replied to your boring question.

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Vikings 'Til I Die!!! & BEYOND!!! English By Birth....A WIDNESIAN By The Grace Of God!:icons66c2_files/5109-2485traci14uk-msnicons.jpg



Quote: headhunter "Fair enough if they weren't in liquidation, I think it's still difficult to argue that they weren't in a worse state than Crusaders though. Crusaders entered adminsitration and registered a new trading name to clear a multitude of debts from the previous owners, they are stable, as you say it was a planned administration because it would be impossible for the club to operate properly with the weight of debts that weren't anything to do with them. Presumably that's why the RFL were lenient. Widnes on the other hand were in dire straits, players were leaving and as far as I'm aware the club was going out of existence until O'Connor stepped in. Any amount of help from the RFL would have been pointless as there was no owner and the club couldn't function. It's pretty irrelevant now as Widnes have proven themselves to be stable and will be granted a license this time. But when the initial decision was made, it was only a few weeks after this had happened, there was no guarantee that O'Connor was in for the long haul etc, so I don't feel the RFL were wrong to leave Widnes out until they could prove themselves, which they have. Remember there was no guarantee that Leighton Samuel would turn out to be a crook and Crusaders would have been mismanaged the way they were in the South either, they were in a stronger position off the field than Widnes at the time.'"


I'm sorry but, How can you even begin to justify Crusaders existance in Super League???
Its been a sham from start to finish...and because of this, The game of Rugby League has been severely damaged, and its reputation torn to shreds.
For your sake, I hope Crusaders now make a go of it, because anything less than a spectacular success would result in a worldwide disaster for the future of Super League & Rugby league in general, and embarrassment & anger on a monmental scale.

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Quote: headhunter "But when the initial decision was made, it was only a few weeks after this had happened, there was no guarantee that O'Connor was in it for the long haul so I don't feel the RFL were wrong to leave Widnes out until they could prove themselves, which they have. Remember there was no guarantee that Leighton Samuel would turn out to be a crook and Crusaders would have been mismanaged the way they were in the South either, they were in a stronger position off the field than Widnes at the time.'"

Apart from his offer a half million pounds cash bond up front.

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kcab sfrawdder Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done But he with a chuckle replied That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried. So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin On his face. If he worried he hid it. He started to sing as he tackled the thing That couldn’t be done, and he did it!:9005.jpg



Quote: Spongolium "This thread is so full of fail it's unreal. When did it become cool to be a "troll"

Crusaders haven't done anything for the game? I wonder what sky would do, if the RFL wasn't so keen on expansion into different area's. Rugby League is the fastest growing sport in Wales. Over 250 schools have started playing league since the inception of the Crusaders. There are now two teams in Wales that can compete with the rest of their leagues. We have an international team that is not only playing well, but growing incredibly quickly, something that in future years should provide a very good opposition to the english to help you improve. Are Wales not going to be hosting the 2013 Rugby world cup? I thought the crusaders didn't do anything. Well then why is it that Welsh rugby league is growing for the first time since before union went pro?

Oh and starbug, it's not the amount of games that the welsh boys have played for the crusaders, but more around the fact that they had a chance to play league. The following players would not be playing rugby league right now if it was not for the Celtic Crusaders

Lloyd White (union player)
Ben Flower (union player)
Gareth Thomas (union player)
Gil Dudson (union player)
Elliot Kear * not sure
Christiaan Roets (union)

They might not be playing regularly for the saders, but none of them would even be in the game if it was not for them.

You flat cap northerns(or should i call you trolls) are so bitter about a "historic" team in Widnes not being admitted, that you are willing to rag on the crusaders at any oportunity. Widnes were weeks out of admin. There is no knowing what Widnes would of become had they entered superleague. I think personally, being left out of the licences the first time around was the best thing the RL could do for Widnes. They have a supurb stadium, and are chomping at the bit to gain entry into superleague. They have sorted all of their problems off the field, and will be a competative team in superleague.

Oh yeah, It's funny that any mention of the Crusaders and Widnes are mentioned immediatly after. Get over yourselves. Anyway, keep fighting teh good fight. Rugby league would still be in the same place it was 20 years ago, and 20 years into the future if not for expansion.'"


The argument is the number of games these players have played for the Crusaders IN SL ?

If you cannot answer that then you have no argument

If these players are at the SWS then it is they who should be credited with their development , and to all intensome purposes they are the original Celtic Crusaders based in south Wales

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Quote: headhunter "Widnes had been out of administration for a matter of weeks when the license applications were submitted. It's alright to look in hindsight but they were in a far, far worse situation than Crusaders are in now, IIRC they actually went into liquidation, all their players were made free agents etc only to be re-signed later when O'Connor bought the club. I agree that international comparisons are by no means an accurate way of judging a club's success, but you stated that Crusaders had done nothing for the game. My opinion is that the RFL should have been more thorough in their investigation of the South Wales club and given them more support, rather than leaving the club in the hands of people like Mike Turner who had no idea how to manage it properly. The reason it failed in the South is through shambolic administration and it's the fault of the people who were running the club at the time, not the RFL for including them. If the club had been administrated properly then there was every chance of it being a success. I don't think there have been any sort of damages to 'credibility' though, other than through the eyes of RL's own paranoid fans. Nobody is laughing at the game, but a lot more people are interested in it now.

People talk about Widnes as if they would be one of the biggest clubs in the game and would take Super League to another level, and there's no evidence to suggest that would be the case at all. They would probably won about the same number of games as Crusaders have in the two years and had average crowds of maybe 1-2000 more than Wrexham had last year, although those fans would almost all be existing RL fans rather than new converts. I would be surprised if they had done significantly better than Crusaders, certainly in the second year. Do they deserve a place? Probably yes, although I still am not convinced that they would be as big a club as Super League should be aspiring to be made up of, although they do have potential for growth. Were they hard done by? I don't feel that they were, and they are almost definitely going to be included this time anyway so it doesn't really make too much difference now. For what it's worth though, despite all their faults, mistakes and the absoulte mass of hatred directed towards them, I think having Crusaders in Super League has been of much more benefit to the game than taking the (in hindsight) safe option of including Widnes would have been. Can anyone say what great benefit Widnes would have provided that the league is currently lacking? That's not to say they don't deserve a place, just when people argue that they would have done so much more for the game, I don't see how that is true. If anything, advocates of Widnes should be arguing for their inclusion ahead of Salford. I think they would probably have performed better than Salford have in the last two years, and would have arguably contributed 'more to the game' than Salford have. To say that they would have contributed more than Crusaders is rubbish.'"



You are a complete muppet, a total shambles of a post if ever i saw one.

You dont know bugger all about Widnes or our ambitions.

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kcab sfrawdder Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done But he with a chuckle replied That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried. So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin On his face. If he worried he hid it. He started to sing as he tackled the thing That couldn’t be done, and he did it!:9005.jpg



Quote: headhunter "Somebody has already replied to your boring question.'"


Have they ? , then you would have no problem giving me the answer to my question then would you ?

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Quote: tb "No. They got in because they were one of the best 14 BIDS.
'"


You should try taking some of your own advice sometimes... "Doubt everything, even this".

And if you genuinely believe that a club that has gone bust twice in 2 years had a solid, sustainable and robust bid that was up there with the best 14, then you really are away with the fairies.

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Quote: -VIKINGMAN- "You are a complete muppet, a total shambles of a post if ever i saw one.

You dont know bugger all about Widnes or our ambitions.'"


When O'Connor's plans come to fruition and we're rivalling the best once again, this lot will be eating their words.

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tb is always the same, it will be interesting if Cas got threw out for 2012, im sure he would take it on the chin and applaud the RFL.

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MINT2024 2 England M34-18Samoa M
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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