I think we start by looking at the strength of Rugby Union in London. Schools participation is immense, although it has probably been massive over the years with headmasters press ganging many kids into playing. Nonetheless the resultant amateur game has also been immense. I can't believe the numbers of currently registered players either. London of course was the centre of Union since Victorian times too. So how many London and greater London people have union roots -I suggest a few Million - so if they put on some sort of party for all Unionites at the stoop (a classic venue I have been to for RL) and if there's a wonderful opportunity for groups of old boys from all the schools who played and all the amateur clubs who played to have a fantastic meet up and booze up with the tube too take them home, then that is attractive.

I was brought up playing soccer and Rugby Union because so many schools didn't play RL in Yorkshire. I don't have a circle of friends interested enough in RL for half a dozen of us to go to the Magic weekend. I think the contrast is merely a numbers game and with respect I don't believe the 82.000 needed "marketing" to get them there. I do believe it was attractive enough for them to go as a social re-union event rather than anything that happens on the pitch. I have been to the stoop with Union friends and it's one massive beer festival, I missed half the game standing up for people constantly going to the bar or toilet!! Mate, I think all this marketing talk is OK to a point but the trouble is people do really have to have a connection and interest to go to events. I could ask a dozen lads from my area that's an RL area (but also heavily soccer and union as well) to go to Magic, but I would only get one say yes as long as I was driving. We can't beat ourselves up because Union beat us after 1896...

I'd like to purchase the book when this has finished.

Well yes crowds went down because we had 2 brand new stands constructed barring 2016 where average crowds went down 250.



Leeds vs Cas is always going to gain more crowd then Toronto as it was only there second season and that Leeds vs Cas is now the West Yorkshire Derby.



Of course they don't want Rangers/Celtic because its league 2 football in the premier league. There European super league is the Champions League. If Hull fans don't like Toronto that's fine they have there opinion but we need to grow the game beyond the M62.

Around 10+years ago, when there were actually London fans on this forum, a number of 250k - 500k was bounded about by their fans, being the number of children participating in rugby league in school and amateur teams around London. I am not going to dispute this figure so if it was correct, what happened to all these kids? Did they not all become massive rugby league fans? Would be interesting to know.

Hi Steph,

I think this was the time when Sports England had a lot of government money to throw around to encourage kids to play sport. What happened was development officers went to many schools and did some RL coaching and every kid who even looked at an RL ball was counted as participating in Rugby League. Again if I remember correctly the higher participation numbers you declared the more grant you got, so the numbers were shall we say "creative"? But as this all came to nothing then that probably proves this explanation is correct.

What probably counts as real participation towards the goal of being a professional is the number of kids playing regular organised competitive junior ARL in London clubs who enter teams into leagues. I have looked up the London Junior League but can't find a list of clubs and age ranges that have teams. They've just finished their finals day so the league for 2020 isn't published

The nearest tube station is 3 miles away.... You should try getting on a train at twiceknham after an 82,000 full house and see how much fun it isn't at 9pm in the freezing rain, but let's discuss the getting there and back iss ue. Football fans have no issue with travel abroad at late notice, whilst union played a fi al in spain a few years back and got 67k for an Irish side v a french side.......but we struggle to attract only the core of our support to either magic or even the cc final..... So id argue that marketing it is the issue.

Thankyou for that informative response. Sounds like those involved in the game in London were massaging the figures somewhat

The answer is quite simple really Stephanie. Once the RFL pulled Development officers in the region and Sport England funding was removed, those schools that took up the game reverted back to Union, who were supportive through RFU grants. As with any declared participation numbers, the figures used back then were for every child who attended a rugby league lesson/training session and a great many PE teachers were happy to accept the offer of a session.

In real terms, participation in the South East at a competitive level is driven by the clubs, such as Greenwich Admirals, a legacy of the London Broncos. Without any fiscal support from the games governing body, such clubs fight hard to secure the attentions of local youth, who are courted by Union Soccer and a plethora of other pastimes.

Greenwich Admirals is where LMS first played the game and he is now in his testimonial year at St Helens, so the production line, no matter how hampered with a lack of central funding, does deliver.


As for your comments about London Fans. I live 12,000 miles away and yet probably attended more London Broncos games than you attended St Helens games in 2019

I've been with you all the way on here but we are poles apart. When we have been to Twickenham we did get there OK, we did stick around a bit whilst the crowds cleared and we did get home fine and we did it again. I do not agree with you at all that "Marketing" is our problem and it's a shame you don't acknowledge the immense number of people in and around London with a great affinity to Rugby Union. Marketing can encourage people to attend an event but in the end they decide. Sure Marketing is needed to sell a product, service or event but you forget that when we offer people an event like the Challenge cup final, they also have a myriad of choices other than that event. Marketing isn't a hypnotic mind changing method of persuasion it just puts something on offer in a good light, but people make the choice.

This is why I always say look at the big clubs marketing departments like Leeds, they do everything they can to pull the fans in but at the end of the day there comes a point when the cost of extra marketing isn't covered by the extra tickets sold accordingly.

I'll agree with you there, union actively tries to ensure league doesn't grow hence I don't think there'll ever be any professional players developed in North America. Someone said that the current London Broncos squad now had a significant number of London Lads in it but when I checked that they were some in the squad but not many in the first XV11. London have of course been around for nearly 40 years, yet they tell me TWP will have a good number of home grown players in 10-15 years. They clearly won't.

So once we are fully transatlantic (to get back on topic) it may save on travel costs if the NA home games games are all played the same weekend and vice versa so their squads AND their opponents can share just one aircraft and save on costs. Imagine all the SL players here travelling together to deliver a round of matches in North America!!

That's hilarious (and probably true).
LeBron is always somewhere else when Saints are playing, the Lake District being his preference.

I think you're confusing marketing with advertising somewhat. Advertising is the thing that you use to shout about yourself. Marketing is the thing that gives you something worth shouting about. They're very different things. People might ultimately make their own choice, but get the marketing right and you make it much easier for them to choose what you're offering. Apple don't make the best mobile phones, but they sell more of them than Samsung and Sony.

I agree that RL can't advertise its way out of the problems it has got itself in, but it can market its way out most of these problems.

What's clear is that RL is a product that has too many imperfections for the market it is operating in. Come out of the echo chamber of RLFANS and you realise that it isn't something that appeals to the sorts of audiences the game needs to start attracting if it is going to reverse the declining crowds, declining profile, declining participation and declining media attention.

Marketing is the thing that develops the sport to make it appeal to those new audiences. I think the evidence of our falling attendances and media profile show that we aren't doing that.

Marketing is the bit that develops the matchday experience so that people want to come back again and again. Compare the matchday experience at the CC Final to other events held at Wembley and tell me that we're coming across as cutting edge, fashionable and welcoming to new fans.

Marketing is the thing that makes it easier for people to "buy into" RL. At the moment, it's hard to do that if you don't live in a very small part of the country or have an expensive TV subscription - the sports digital presence is non-existant and it's difficult to buy decent merchandise without looking like a business card for a local skip hire firm.

Just shouting "TGG" at people, insisting "the product is right, we just need to shout about it", or thinking that cheaper tickets is going to help is not going to solve the problem. RL's appeal is getting less and less, the average age of our supporter is getting higher and higher, and the clubs seem too ignorant, reluctant and/or stubborn to do anything about it.