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| Club Coach | 1196 | Wakefield Trinity |
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I know the threads moved on a bit, but if my memory serves didn't Rodney walker loan a large sum (£160,000?) to the old wakey regime? I believe he was one of the creditors who was paid back first and in full.
I can't remember where or when I've got this from, I just seem to have a memory of it so perhaps someone could confirm or otherwise please (please don't attack me for posting this; I accept I could be totally wrong!)
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"very easily, the creditors issue is with the previous owners not the new ones. You are punishing the new ones, not the old ones,
What's stopping owners running up huge debts then putting the club into admin is that they will lose all the money they put in. That's the deterrent, taking points off a club they no longer own isn't a deterrent. Do you think Omar Kahn is sat there saying 'well, I'm cool with the hundreds of thousands of pounds I lost but god forbid they take points off a club i dont own'?
No sanction you levy on Bradford now could have any effect on how Omar Kahn ran the business. Just as no sanction you could levy on Andrew Glover would have affected how Ted Richardson ran Wakefield'"
You know what the biggest problem in these guys just not "getting it" is? Over and above those who just want to see Bradford screwed to improve their own club's chances of avoiding the drop? They can't get their heads around the distinction between an entity - be it company or club - that is incapable of any thought or action by itself - and those who own and/or direct it.
Maybe they would go out and give a car a damn good thrashing, because a previous owner ran up an HP debt on it and did not pay the garage for servicing it. That will REALLY teach that nasty car a lesson, won't it? And it will REALLY encourage its new owner not to do it again, won't it? Except, he never actually did it in the first place; a previous owner did.
Indeed, giving the car a well-deserved thrashing is, if anything, only likely to impoverish the new owner, and make it much more likely he will end up doing the same as the previous one.
(c) Adeybull's Car Analogies - available on Amazon and from all good bookstores. |
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| Quote joedynamo="joedynamo"Ses hasnt been right once ITT...just t'other day he was insisting there was an an automatic sanction for Insolvency Events/quote
My argument is and has always been built on precedent and fairness, no more, no less!
Spin, Spin, Spin all you like but I've been consistent throughout even when others were calling for Bradfords expulsion, I said no because there was no precedent for it.
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We shouldn't put club names on trophies - just those that were directors of the clubs at the time the trophy was lifted. Maurice Lyndsay would be all over the Challenge Cup.
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| Quote littlerich="littlerich"We shouldn't put club names on trophies - just those that were directors of the clubs at the time the trophy was lifted. Maurice Lyndsay would be all over the Challenge Cup.'"
Well that would make me feel a whole lot better at Leeds losing all those cup finals. I reckon losing would be the better option to be honest. |
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| Quote littlerich="littlerich":1ri1u4ueWe shouldn't put club names on trophies - just those that were directors of the clubs at the time the trophy was lifted. Maurice Lyndsay would be all over the Challenge Cup.'" :1ri1u4ue
Not a pretty sight... 
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| Quote Sesquipedalian="Sesquipedalian"Here are two very good reasons why member Clubs of a Sports National Governing Body must be seen to be punished for financial imprudence
So if the RFL adopt Smokeys model there would be no penalty for a club entering or indeed continually entering Administration. This is because the new owners weren't to blame and I can see some semblance of logic in there somewhere.
Unfortunately in the real world National Governing Bodies are obligated to oversee financial governance within their sport, that means they must have sanctions which penalise insolvency events such as a CVA or the much more serious Administation.
At stake for the whole sport including pro, semi pro, amateur, community clubs and schools is the funding received from all Government agencies in particular Sport England without whom we are up a creek with no paddle.
[iExerpt from Page 9 of Sport England's Guidance for NGBs
We will regularly assess governance practices and the governance, finance and control frameworks of NGBs. During the 2013-17 funding period, NGBs which fail to meet our key criteria for effective governance and/ or have significant weaknesses in their governance, finance and control frameworks, which are not addressed immediately, will have their funding withheld or withdrawn.
Excerpt from Page 15 of Sport England's Guidance for NGBs
Governance and financial control (red/amber/green)
Our key criteria for effective governance are set out in the table below. They draw together and build upon the minimum standards that we already set through our current self-assurance and on-site audit processes.
Any NGB rated red for governance will not receive an offer of funding for 2013-17.
[/i
The NGB is expected to deter insolvency events via strict and enforceable sanctions. HMRC in particular will treat Sporting entities differently based upon the understanding that the NGB will enforce such sanctions. This was evident when the RFL were complicit in the Celtic Crusaders entry into Administration leaving many creditors out of pocket including a huge amount owed to HMRC. HMRC acted upon the RFLs abdication of duty by withdrawing the arrangement schemes enjoyed by many clubs which is why first Batley and then Wakefield were put in jeopardy a few years ago.
Beyond that the HMRC treats Sport differently in many other ways such as: Image Rights, Stadium upkeep, New Stadium builds, international events and so on. So you see why it is vitally important to the sport that the NGB, the RFL in our case, has sanctions for insolvency events.
Incidentally there is also an obligation on NGBs to be transparent in all decision making and to demonstrate high levels of equality in how they treat their members. Failure to do this can ado result in loss or refusal of some or all funding for the sport.'"
There is not one thing in there that demands clubs receive any kind of points deduction or financial penalty on coming out of admin.
Hth |
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| Quote Sesquipedalian="Sesquipedalian"My argument is and has always been built on precedent and fairness, no more, no less!'"
As indeed has mine.
Don't pay your creditors (Bulls last time) - 6 pts.
Pay some of your creditors (Wakey, Crusaders) - fewer points (presumably depends on how much repaid...see next point)
Pay all your creditors (Salford) - nil points.
Since no-one knows for sure what Bradford's new owners are definitely going to do regarding paying the creditors, its a tad premature to be calling for specific penalties, wouldn't you say?
I guess, while we are on the subject of precedents, I just HAVE to drop in:
Financial penalty on future owners through entering into an act of insolvency and wishing to be re-admitted to SL (London Broncos, Crusaders, Wakefield, Salford...) - £nil. |
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| International Chairman | 14145 | No
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| Quote Sesquipedalian="Sesquipedalian"Here are two very good reasons why member Clubs of a Sports National Governing Body must be seen to be punished for financial imprudence
So if the RFL adopt Smokeys model there would be no penalty for a club entering or indeed continually entering Administration. This is because the new owners weren't to blame and I can see some semblance of logic in there somewhere.
Unfortunately in the real world National Governing Bodies are obligated to oversee financial governance within their sport, that means they must have sanctions which penalise insolvency events such as a CVA or the much more serious Administation.
At stake for the whole sport including pro, semi pro, amateur, community clubs and schools is the funding received from all Government agencies in particular Sport England without whom we are up a creek with no paddle.
[iExerpt from Page 9 of Sport England's Guidance for NGBs
We will regularly assess governance practices and the governance, finance and control frameworks of NGBs. During the 2013-17 funding period, NGBs which fail to meet our key criteria for effective governance and/ or have significant weaknesses in their governance, finance and control frameworks, which are not addressed immediately, will have their funding withheld or withdrawn.
Excerpt from Page 15 of Sport England's Guidance for NGBs
Governance and financial control (red/amber/green)
Our key criteria for effective governance are set out in the table below. They draw together and build upon the minimum standards that we already set through our current self-assurance and on-site audit processes.
Any NGB rated red for governance will not receive an offer of funding for 2013-17.
[/i
The NGB is expected to deter insolvency events via strict and enforceable sanctions. HMRC in particular will treat Sporting entities differently based upon the understanding that the NGB will enforce such sanctions. This was evident when the RFL were complicit in the Celtic Crusaders entry into Administration leaving many creditors out of pocket including a huge amount owed to HMRC. HMRC acted upon the RFLs abdication of duty by withdrawing the arrangement schemes enjoyed by many clubs which is why first Batley and then Wakefield were put in jeopardy a few years ago.
Beyond that the HMRC treats Sport differently in many other ways such as: Image Rights, Stadium upkeep, New Stadium builds, international events and so on. So you see why it is vitally important to the sport that the NGB, the RFL in our case, has sanctions for insolvency events.
Incidentally there is also an obligation on NGBs to be transparent in all decision making and to demonstrate high levels of equality in how they treat their members. Failure to do this can ado result in loss or refusal of some or all funding for the sport.'"
Which is all totally right and sensible. And I am on record, for years, about how WRONG it is for ANY business to withhold PAYE collected from its employees, and VAT collected from its customers, to fund the business. It is just plain totally wrong, and I think directors should be automatically personally liable for the laibility unless they can show they took immediate steps, in utmost good faith, to resolve the situation.
But I have yet to see ANYONE advance a credible case for how punishing future new owners in any way deters existing owners from failing to act responsibly and properly?
See my suggestion earlier about how you do that.
Where the real failure lies, is in the RFL failing to put in place a financial control mechanism to prevent clubs from becoming insolvent in the first place. |
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| Player Coach | 659 | No
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"There is not one thing in there that demands clubs receive any kind of points deduction or financial penalty on coming out of admin.
Hth'"
I suppose before youll accept any of this you want Sport England to actually name Bradford Bulls, Omar Khan and put the exact dates of Administrations in the rules as well. |
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