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Quote: Call Me God "How to spectacularly miss the point......but let's look at what you've just posted, regardless of "crowds" not being why the SL chairmen are looking at their options, but rather TV cash and exposure.

Anywhoooo..... Dewsbury v Batley, 2 sides less than 3 miles apart, was a match-up first played 109 years ago and last year attracted a gate of 963 and was not available to watch LIVE on TV or via stream......London v Toronto (209 miles apart....sorry, that's Manchester....3,500 miles apart) met for the first time last season in the Challenge Cup and was attended by 758 fans, whilst being available on TV to watch LIVE in both the UK and in Canada.

So using your flawed logic, those 205 extra fans at Dewsbury are more important than taking the game to new frontiers? And we wonder why the Media treat us like a northern hobby with a few blokes in flat caps with whippets watching
Hope your sl club is not relegated in place for Toronto or Toulouse and the door slammed shut as you will change your tune. C1 is on the verge of becoming amateur dew to the greed of the top flight

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: hooligan27 "Hope your sl club is not relegated in place for Toronto or Toulouse and the door slammed shut as you will change your tune. C1 is on the verge of becoming amateur dew to the greed of the top flight'"


The response to that is simply "what's the alternative, other than seeing this sport continue its decline?"

The game is stagnating, it's falling behind it's competitors and it needs to seriously reinvent itself to deliver what fans, broadcasters and commercial partners want.

In all honest truth, it shouldn't matter whether those clubs are in Thatto Heath or Toronto, Parkside or Perpignan, Wakefield or Winnipeg, Bradford or Boston - what matters is whether they can attract the audiences that broadcasters and sponsors care about, that they can deliver the right matchday experience to grow crowds and open our demographic reach, and that they can generate the revenue that helps this sport to attract, retain and look after the welfare of the best possible talent.

But the heartland clubs have had 120 years to demonstrate that they can deliver that, most have failed, and I haven't seen any workable idea to reverse that trend from anyone yelling "let's focus on the heartlands!".

That entire attitude of "we're being kicked out by the big clubs and we demand a shot at Super League because look at our away fans..." just smacks of "we don't care that professional RL in the UK is dying, just as long as we get to be part of that death".

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Quote: Roy Haggerty "Struggling financially, the stadium drama rolls on and on, and the crowds were still bottom 3 in the comp last year, as in the years before. They're doing better on the pitch, but that doesn't matter, bluntly. Nobody cares what happens on the pitch except our existing fans, and we don't have enough of them. If Wakefield's stadium ever actually happened, and they filled it weekly with 10,000 fans, then I would be clamouring for their justified place in the top flight, whether or not they were winning or losing more. But they aren't. Obviously not in such a dire position as Salford, but it's arguable that Widnes are in less trouble because at least they have a stadium.

Because, with the influence of Big Nigel (ex of Halifax), the RFL decided that their top priority was the possibility of Featherstone, Halifax or Leigh gaining promotion for a year in the top flight. The price for P&R, which was clearly only likely to benefit those three clubs, was a reduction in numbers in the top flight to spread the money thicker amongst the remaining clubs, plus a play-off system which I think everyone expected to so heavily favour the fully professional SL sides that actual P&R was seen as only a theoretical possibility, not a real one.

When the decision was taken in 2013 to reduce from 14 to 12, with P&R to follow, I suspect the SL clubs thought that the clubs to be cut would be London, who were in financial collapse at the time, and one of Salford, Widnes, Castleford or Wakefield, based on normal results. They didn't really want London to go, but were willing to pay that price for the extra cash and London seemed a basket case at the time anyway. Everyone was horrified when Bradford, one of the few genuinely big clubs, then collapsed and disappeared along with London, which suddenly made the league look much smaller and more parochial than expected.

We've since had the worst of all worlds. Hull KR and Leigh have demonstrated through their Yo-Yoing that even when it happens, P&R does nothing for the SL competition apart from swap two poorly-supported no-hoper teams in already-saturated markets. However, the near-disappearance of Catalans shook up the bigger clubs, because they can see that if the French follow London and Bradford, SL looks even more parochial and even less attractive to the broadcasters and sponsors. Meanwhile, the relegation of Hull KR and Leigh, who as fully pro sides weren't supposed to fall through the trapdoor, made the lower-half SL clubs terrified, because it could be them, while the possibility of losing a big, rich club like Warrington was just unacceptable to the other clubs. Hence the P&R had to go, for all the reasons which were given, and ignored, for not introducing it in the first place.

The clubs thought they'd been clever in introducing P&R to pacify the top championship clubs and more traditional-minded fans, without the risk of any big clubs falling foul of it because of the play-off system. In many ways, it was supposed to be much more of a closed shop than licensing ever was, because there was now no way for a new club to threaten the place of one of the poor performers other than the supposedly impossible play-off route. What they ended up with is the loss of one of the biggest clubs - Bradford - along with the loss of London, and the too-near-for-comfort potential loss of Warrington and Catalans. Yet while the system seems to allow for the disappearance of some of our few genuine asset clubs, it has become very apparent that the Leigh/Hull KR/Halifax clubs, while unlikely to add much to SL as a competition, are always likely to act as an effective barrier to entry (or re-entry) for new asset clubs clubs with greater commercial/developmental potential like Bradford, Toulouse and Toronto.

The system is a disaster - a genuine risk to the continuity and maybe survival of major clubs in a sport not overflowing with major clubs, but one which ensures that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any new potential to enter the top flight. It has to change.

The defenestration of Nigel Wood was partly the lower-half clubs acting to ensure their own survival, to try and bring the system to an end. But it was also the upper half clubs trying to find a way of recreating a way into SL for clubs beyond the Leigh/Halifax/Fev group in an attempt to improve the marketability and spread of a sport which they know is stagnant and declining. I have heard that they were furious to discover, after Nigel's departure, that the play-offs were enshrined in the TV contract, which explains why no new system has yet been announced, because there'll have to be serious negotiations with Sky first.

We're in uncharted waters, and I would love to have a mole on the inside of the RFL to fill in the gaps in what I've heard/read/gleaned from various places. But on balance, even if for selfish reasons, I think the bigger clubs are trying to take the sport in the right direction. Lenagan, Moran, Pearson, Davy, and McManus are not stupid men. They want a bigger, more attractive competition, and they recognise that all the current structure has achieved is to foster the game's stagnation.'"


I've resisted turning this into a discussion about individual teams but let's look at this a minute, and talk about HKR. Yes my team, but will try and avoid bias.

in 10 years previous to relegation the club had an average crowd within the top 6 of the league, participates in games that create news across the full country and has regular 18k plus crowds, has developed stadium quicker then any other club promising same things, been in the top 5 clubs for ticket sales at every magic weekend going, created a relationship with an emerging country in PNG, become the number 1 sports club in the UK for social media engagement, and competed ( I use the term loosely ) in a challenge cup final ( which only 50-60% of the SL have in the same period) Away support is another point to make, but clubs shouldn't rely on that so I will leave that point for now.

To label the club as no hopers and yo-yoing because of one relegation and promotion is a stretch, HKR bring a lot more to SL then many other teams and opportunity for further growth with a catchment area that is a strong RL area can be one of the strongest teams.

Toronto can be a benchmark, however are currently an exception. Every other expansion team has fallen flat on their face and had no interest. Toulouse for all there might and glamour ( sarcasm) can not even fulfill challenge cup games this season. How enthralling. Bradford did well under the Bullmania, but what have they achieved since? A steady decline. What makes you think they have massive opportunities, shall we relive Bullmania again and I know, music after tries will really attract the big sponsors.

The product is excellent, but the marketing element of our full game is pishe poor. We accept second best from sky and need some real leadership and visionary. If we started at the top and promoted the game as a whole, interest in individual teams would follow. Then it's the job of teams marketing plans to follow up on the momentum, momentum of which the game currently has zero.

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Quote: "Toronto can be a benchmark, however are currently an exception. Every other expansion team has fallen flat on their face and had no interest.'"


I'm not sure Catalans has fallen flat on its face. Outside of this country expansion has worked in Melbourne, Gold Coast etc so it can work.

Its needs a centralised strategy rather than a money man deciding where he wants to put a team.

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Hull KR the pride of East Hull.:



Looking at this from a team that's not mine, and in league 1.

York, are based in a city that's known around the world. And is a great city to spend the day in.
The RL club has in the last season and a bit got 2, 2000+ crowds. 1 for a cup game v York Acorn which let's face it is a game they were always going to win. 1 after an excellent marketing campaign provoked intrest. This season they got a 4,000 + crowd for there season opener (admittedly Bradford probably took alot). They are eventually looking at moving into an 8000 all seater stadium. There's a fairly good a amature scene, and they are reaching into the community to promote RL.
It's been shown that there is potential there, and that the club could do great things. They are good at marketing, can attract decent crowds. Everything that people complain is wrong with SL.

And what are we going to do. Throw them out, leave them to rot. To not reach potential.
And all because they are club based in the north of England.
This in my opinion is not right.

If Australia is looking for new clubs because of staleness and lack of crowds. Us reducing our league and relying on franchises that may or may not work. Just rocks of desperation.

On a side note,
Given that the BBC'S sport headquarters is based in Salford. Which itself is next to the 3rd biggest city in England.
Dose that Mean Salford should be exempt from relegation. As the potential for everything people want from the American franchise's is there as well.

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Quote: luke ShipleyRed "Looking at this from a team that's not mine, and in league 1.

York, are based in a city that's known around the world. And is a great city to spend the day in.
The RL club has in the last season and a bit got 2, 2000+ crowds. 1 for a cup game v York Acorn which let's face it is a game they were always going to win. 1 after an excellent marketing campaign provoked intrest. This season they got a 4,000 + crowd for there season opener (admittedly Bradford probably took alot). They are eventually looking at moving into an 8000 all seater stadium. There's a fairly good a amature scene, and they are reaching into the community to promote RL.
It's been shown that there is potential there, and that the club could do great things. They are good at marketing, can attract decent crowds. Everything that people complain is wrong with SL.

And what are we going to do. Throw them out, leave them to rot. To not reach potential.
And all because they are club based in the north of England.
This in my opinion is not right.

If Australia is looking for new clubs because of staleness and lack of crowds. Us reducing our league and relying on franchises that may or may not work. Just rocks of desperation.

On a side note,
Given that the BBC'S sport headquarters is based in Salford. Which itself is next to the 3rd biggest city in England.
Dose that Mean Salford should be exempt from relegation. As the potential for everything people want from the American franchise's is there as well.'"

Manchester Rangers want SL eventually too

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Hull KR the pride of East Hull.:



Quote: Psychedelic Casual "Manchester Rangers want SL eventually too'"


is that still being looked into? I now there was some talk about before, I wasn't sure 8f they were still looking at it .

Makes this proposal even harder. As at the moment a minimum of 2 SL clubs will be going down (if you include Toronto & Toulouse that's 4). So 4 or 6 current championship clubs would be told to go amateur (or league 1).

Now if you add in Manchester, Newcastle, Coventry (backed by Wasps) & Dublin who were all reported to be intrested in a SL Franchise. That 4 more clubs being told to go amateur (or league 1)
Then add in New York, Hamilton, Boston and others.

Your basically relegating every team that's in the Championship down. Also demoting at least 4 to 7 more current SL clubs.

And people are arguing that that's alright?

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: hooligan27 "Hope your sl club is not relegated in place for Toronto or Toulouse and the door slammed shut as you will change your tune.'"

No I won't...commerce is commerce and if we aren't in then it's because we don't deserve to be in........sad as it is, sport is no longer about sport when it comes to the top level.

Quote: hooligan27 "I'm not sure Catalans has fallen flat on its face. Outside of this country expansion has worked in Melbourne, Gold Coast etc so it can work.

Its needs a centralised strategy rather than a money man deciding where he wants to put a team.'"

GOLD STAR POST!

Hughes has single-handedly saved and buggered RL in London in equal measure. What should have happened was the 10 heartland clubs in 1996 should have accepted their new found windfall with a 20% payback each to fund London and Paris......... letting someone pick up that tab doesn't work....the severe restraint on expenditure in Toronto this season points to this realisation setting in......Melbourne works because melbourne was funded by the people who bankrolled the NRL.......the NRL collectively assists troubled clubs......they work together. SL is a collective of 12 egos at present.....that's not going to end well.

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Quote: Call Me God "No I won't...commerce is commerce and if we aren't in then it's because we don't deserve to be in........sad as it is, sport is no longer about sport when it comes to the top level.

GOLD STAR POST!

Hughes has single-handedly saved and buggered RL in London in equal measure. What should have happened was the 10 heartland clubs in 1996 should have accepted their new found windfall with a 20% payback each to fund London and Paris......... letting someone pick up that tab doesn't work....the severe restraint on expenditure in Toronto this season points to this realisation setting in......Melbourne works because melbourne was funded by the people who bankrolled the NRL.......the NRL collectively assists troubled clubs......they work together. SL is a collective of 12 egos at present.....that's not going to end well.'"


And therein lays the million dollar question, what do we want from the game.
Instead of the "every minute matters" boll****, perhaps "we" could actually think long and hard on where we want to be and exactly the best way of getting there.

IF we go for the 2 x 10 SL1 & SL2, we will be doing it all again within another 3/4 years.

A 10 club top flight will not accommodate all the clubs that want and/or deserve to be in there
The main issue being that for any kind of expansion to work, those clubs need to be in SL and not plying their trade in the 2nd and 3rd tier of the game.

Although the inclusion of Toronto in The Championship may have added some "excitement", they will need to be in SL to have any long term chance of survival. Ditto New York (when they get going) and ditto Toulouse.

IF we include these clubs in a 10 club top tier, I genuinely fear for the sport in this country.

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[b:1crbsr9w] Toulouse for Championship in 2017, Super League in 2021! Avignon for Championship in 2021, Super League in 2022! [/b:1crbsr9w]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_18302.png



A ten club Super League won't work if you want French and north American clubs in Super League.

London needs to be funded by Sky or News Ltd. and placed in Super League. That club should be part of the maximum of 10 English clubs in Super League. Some heartlands English clubs will go down to the Championship.

But then we need French and north American clubs in Super League in order to expand the game and get more money from TV contracts.

Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York are just the starting points for a more lucrative Sky contract. That is why there has to be at least 14 clubs in Super League in time for the Sky contract in 2022. But we also need the option of expanding further in 2027 with Avignon, Paris, Boston and Montreal coming up from the Championship.

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[b:1crbsr9w] Toulouse for Championship in 2017, Super League in 2021! Avignon for Championship in 2021, Super League in 2022! [/b:1crbsr9w]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_18302.png



Quote: Lebron James "I would like to see expansion towards the west coast of America also. Do you think this is feasible and achievable?

Regards

King James'"


Not while the north American teams are competing in the RFL's Super League. The travelling distances are too far from the west coast.

However both San Francisco and Vancouver are centres of rugby union participation. We could easily make inroads into those two great cities if the north American teams were ever in a position to start their own stand alone competition -- with Philadelphia, Jacksonville, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston the other necessary participants.

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Irony is represented below. [quote="JEAN CAPDOUZE":162hm7sy]He is not telling the truth. He is talking paranoid rubbish.[/quote:162hm7sy]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_59837.jpg



Quote: JEAN CAPDOUZE "A ten club Super League won't work if you want French and north American clubs in Super League.

[sizeLondon needs to be funded by Sky or News Ltd. and placed in Super League. [/sizeThat club should be part of the maximum of 10 English clubs in Super League. Some heartlands English clubs will go down to the Championship.

[sizeBut then we need French and north American clubs in Super League[/size in order to expand the game and get more money from TV contracts.

Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and New York are just the starting points for a more lucrative Sky contract. That is why there has to be at least 14 clubs in Super League in time for the Sky contract in 2022. But we also need the option of expanding further in 2027 with Avignon, Paris, Boston and Montreal coming up from the Championship.'"


Be placed in SL????. No, they get there on merit, i.e gaining promotion.

Need French and North American clubs, or is it just your vision.

Ihave no problem with any club being in SL, as long as it is earned. Wouldnt you agree

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: JEAN CAPDOUZE "London needs to be funded by Sky or News Ltd. .'"

Nope.
1. London should have been funded by SKY/the other clubs back in 1996 but wasn't.
2. That horse has bolted, as have SKY, who are now about content rather than quality and London, Toronto or Tunbridge Wells are neither here nor there....Disney simply care about eyeballs and not about "location"
3. I believe another poster that sounded like "utter facts"was derided for saying as much 15 years ago on here....... icon_wink.gif

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Which clubs are in favour of a 10 team Super League? Surely it can’t be more than 1 or 2 foolish chairmen.

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Quote: Sir Kevin Sinfield "Which clubs are in favour of a 10 team Super League? Surely it can’t be more than 1 or 2 foolish chairmen.'"


Perhaps it's the same ones that voted for the last reduction ?
You didn't nee the benefit of hindsight to know that reducing the numbers in the top flight, whilst trying to expand the game (albeit in France at the time) was just plain wrong.
Yes it was all wrapped up to try and show that there would be the sweetener of additional funding and a way back into the top flight but, it looks stupidly short sighted now icon_surprised.gifops:

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Leigh Leopards Lay Claim To Pl..
621
Salford Up To Fourth After Dem..
822
Hull KR Embarrass Saints As Th..
701
Rhinos Sweep Past the Dragons ..
629
Warrington Wolves Level Second..
1237
Emphatic Win For The Warriors ..
1020
London Broncos Thrash Hull FC ..
1135
Leigh Leopards Defeat Hull Wit..
1514
Sensational Leeds Rhinos Thras..
1751
Catalans Squeeze Past The Gian..
1504
Saints Win Golden Point Thrill..
1793
First Half Wigan Blitz Overcom..
2239
London Broncos Victorious Over..
2245
Salford Win the Mid Table Batt..
1996