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| FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > How can England catch up |
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| Quote: JB Down Under "England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'"
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| Quote: JB Down Under "England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'"
That's because England has significantly more professional clubs than New Zealand, which has a grand total of one.
How do the numbers of people participating in rugby league stack up? | | |
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Richie "So where is the money coming from to send the scouts, and why do you think it's more worthwhile there than in community coaches?'"
The Clubs would be the ones expected to pay for it.
We are probably extracting all we can from those already playing RL in the heartlands. Yes we could likely train them better but common sense tells us that we will pick up a huge percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL, who are already playing RL in the heartlands. It also tells us, as does the evidence, that we arent picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who arent playing RL and arent in the heartland.
Quote: Richie "Which is the source that can be send on scouting, but can't be sent on coaching?'" The clubs,
Quote: Richie "I agree. Well, coach coaches might be more effective than the coaches themselves, as would bringing better coaches here to teach our coaches.'" certainly. | | |
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: JB Down Under "England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'" one third of junior players affiliated to the NRL are Kiwis. One third of the players to go through the best youth development system in the rugby world are kiwis. | | | |
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "By the time a kid is identified as an elite athlete at one particular sport (whether that be athletics, football, gymnastics or whatever) it's usually because they've made the decision to pursue that particular sport ahead of all others and devote their free time to it.
Turning up to say the English schools athletics championships and asking the 400m winner whether he's ever fancied playing rugby league is going to be an exercise in futility. He's already picked his sport and his event and will be devoting all his time to being the best at it he can possibly be.
For what it costs in time and money to do that sort of targeted scouting you can probably get 100 kids in a school somewhere playing the game and take your chances that one of those goes on to play the sport at the top level.'"
That isnt the case at all, most people who go on to be professional sports people are playing multiple sports and have been identified as having the potential to be elite athletes.
Besides i think you are going a bit further than I would propose. Im not talking about finding the fastest 16 year old 100 metre runner in the country and seeing if he wants to play RL, im talking closer to county level, and even then it doesnt need to be the best, simply someone able to perform at a high level. the 20th fastest hundred metre sprinter in Britain would easily be the fastest 100 metre sprinter in RL. | | |
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Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "The Clubs would be the ones expected to pay for it.
We are probably extracting all we can from those already playing RL in the heartlands. Yes we could likely train them better but common sense tells us that we will pick up a huge percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL, who are already playing RL in the heartlands. It also tells us, as does the evidence, that we arent picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who arent playing RL and arent in the heartland.
The clubs,
certainly.'"
 Is this a SL rule or an RFL rule that says clubs can spend money on scouting badminton tournaments, but not spend it on community coaching?
I'm not sure your "evidence" that "we aren't picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who aren't playing RL and arent in the heartland" and are willing and able to play RL really stacks up here. | | | |
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Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "That isnt the case at all, most people who go on to be professional sports people are playing multiple sports and have been identified as having the potential to be elite athletes.
Besides i think you are going a bit further than I would propose. Im not talking about finding the fastest 16 year old 100 metre runner in the country and seeing if he wants to play RL, im talking closer to county level, and even then it doesnt need to be the best, simply someone able to perform at a high level. the 20th fastest hundred metre sprinter in Britain would easily be the fastest 100 metre sprinter in RL.'"
So we take UK athletics sprinters #20 to #80, who likely can't change direction, catch a ball, carry a ball, throw a ball, take a hit or make a hit. We invest our limited coaching resources in them (at the expense of other players of course, because we don't have unlimited coaching resources) and that's going to push us ahead in rugby league? | | |
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Any merit to a mid - season series against the Kiwi's when SOO is going on?
Alternate each year i.e. them coming to us, us going to them. 3 Match series....
Club rugby continues just as it does in the NRL.
Logistically difficult and the clubs would obviously object but it might be a further opportunity for clubs to blood youngsters into the Super League environment during this period.
Oh and England get more Test Matches!
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Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: MTaylor59 "Any merit to a mid - season series against the Kiwi's when SOO is going on?
Alternate each year i.e. them coming to us, us going to them. 3 Match series....
Club rugby continues just as it does in the NRL.
Logistically difficult and the clubs would obviously object but it might be a further opportunity for clubs to blood youngsters into the Super League environment during this period.
Oh and England get more Test Matches!'"
Maybe so, just that we've seen how players have struggled after such travel mid-season, and not just in the test but in the match after too.
Sometimes I think the RFL should invest part of their available funding into scramjet research  | | |
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pretty simple really ,play junior rugby league in the summer.you will get more kids playing and it wont compete with football.
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Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: saintnickle34 "pretty simple really ,play junior rugby league in the summer.you will get more kids playing and it wont compete with football.'"
Completely agree. Far better for skills coaching too, rather than have them running around for the whole session, just so they can keep warm. | | |
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Numbers playing the game in the UK is an issue, we are never going to compete with football there are still huge numbers out there looking for competitive sport that the RFL can go for. I am sure I've read on here that numbers have increased markedly in recent years, but there is a long way to go and it is years before we'll reap any rewards.
Do we need more things like this? www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8381 ... he_future/
I know it’s not even started but to me it is a very promising link up providing school kids with top class facilities and coaches, and junior players with education on site. I've also read that there could be plans to have boarders studying at the school and part of Saints junior set up, allowing talent to come from far and wide.
Aside from Club and Fan mentality which are focused upon themselves rather than England RL and the fundamental issues with our support play and defence, there are serious issues with the basic development of our backs, we seem perfectly adept at producing forwards who can compete with the best in the world but pace, guile and creativity is desperately lacking out wide.
Bear in mind I only started watching RL in 1993, where are the next Connolly, Newlove, Offiah (I know he didn’t start RL) or Robinson coming from?
Players like Sam and Kyle have the raw skills and potential to create opportunities for three quarters but there are slim pickings of players ready to step in, maybe Tom Briscoe and Ryan Hall have the speed and ability to be very good, Shenton has had a promising 2nd half but he has an awful lot of improvement to get close, if these 3 could kick on we’d be much more competitive but that is such a big IF. Chris Bridge, Lee Smith are two potentially better options than what we have at present but good enough to compete? Doubtful.
Peter Fox, Ryan Atkins have the physique and pace to stand out but seem to lack skill, ability and confidence at International level, we’ve lost a couple of potential players to RU but so many of these supposedly talented backs come through touted as future international stars and then some stagnate or just disappear, Tony Stewart, Kirk Yeaman, Karl Pryce, Ste Tyrer, Kevin Penny, Richard Horne, Mark Calderwood, Ritchie Mathers, Shaun Ainscough, Stuart Reardon to name a few can anyone put the finger on why the forwards can progress and the back don’t? In that same period we’ve developed Graham, Roby, Ellis, Burgess, Joel Tomkins, O’Loughlin, (Hock), Crabtree, Westwood who are more or less as good as their international rivals (and there are several more coming through now)
What about Ben Jones-Bishop, Kallum Watkins, Josh Charnley, Jamie Foster, Lee Gaskell, Reece Lynne, Richard Owen, Stefan Marsh I don’t think any are close to ready yet but are they potential world stars or just promising Super League players great at academy level? |
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Numbers playing the game in the UK is an issue, we are never going to compete with football there are still huge numbers out there looking for competitive sport that the RFL can go for. I am sure I've read on here that numbers have increased markedly in recent years, but there is a long way to go and it is years before we'll reap any rewards.
Do we need more things like this? www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8381 ... he_future/
I know it’s not even started but to me it is a very promising link up providing school kids with top class facilities and coaches, and junior players with education on site. I've also read that there could be plans to have boarders studying at the school and part of Saints junior set up, allowing talent to come from far and wide.
Aside from Club and Fan mentality which are focused upon themselves rather than England RL and the fundamental issues with our support play and defence, there are serious issues with the basic development of our backs, we seem perfectly adept at producing forwards who can compete with the best in the world but pace, guile and creativity is desperately lacking out wide.
Bear in mind I only started watching RL in 1993, where are the next Connolly, Newlove, Offiah (I know he didn’t start RL) or Robinson coming from?
Players like Sam and Kyle have the raw skills and potential to create opportunities for three quarters but there are slim pickings of players ready to step in, maybe Tom Briscoe and Ryan Hall have the speed and ability to be very good, Shenton has had a promising 2nd half but he has an awful lot of improvement to get close, if these 3 could kick on we’d be much more competitive but that is such a big IF. Chris Bridge, Lee Smith are two potentially better options than what we have at present but good enough to compete? Doubtful.
Peter Fox, Ryan Atkins have the physique and pace to stand out but seem to lack skill, ability and confidence at International level, we’ve lost a couple of potential players to RU but so many of these supposedly talented backs come through touted as future international stars and then some stagnate or just disappear, Tony Stewart, Kirk Yeaman, Karl Pryce, Ste Tyrer, Kevin Penny, Richard Horne, Mark Calderwood, Ritchie Mathers, Shaun Ainscough, Stuart Reardon to name a few can anyone put the finger on why the forwards can progress and the back don’t? In that same period we’ve developed Graham, Roby, Ellis, Burgess, Joel Tomkins, O’Loughlin, (Hock), Crabtree, Westwood who are more or less as good as their international rivals (and there are several more coming through now)
What about Ben Jones-Bishop, Kallum Watkins, Josh Charnley, Jamie Foster, Lee Gaskell, Reece Lynne, Richard Owen, Stefan Marsh I don’t think any are close to ready yet but are they potential world stars or just promising Super League players great at academy level? | |
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//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Richie "No, but we have many many coaches already in the heartlands. So Leeds arent going to feel any kind of huge benefit in spending more money on another community coach in Leeds, there is a saturation point in the heartlands.
Leeds arent also going to randomly decide to pay for a community coaching in Plymouth.
Quote: Richie "I'm not sure your "evidence" that "we aren't picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who aren't playing RL and arent in the heartland" and are willing and able to play RL really stacks up here.'" well, i like everyone else, cant prove a negative. However what I do know is, that if we were picking up everybody with the inherent talent in RL then we wouldnt have such a vast majority of our players come from one area of our country.
I also know that there are huge amounts of people who dont, and never had played our game.
All im saying is that if we can get those people with the inherent talent to play RL, playing RL then they would come through in to the professional ranks and strengthen our player pool. It will also be a much shorter wait for these people to come through if, rather than wait for the very long process it will be for the rest of the country to develop an amateur game as strong as the heartlands, clubs spend a bit of time and bit of money, looking at those with the inherent talent to be RL players and seeing if we can make them so.
That way, we can pick up Brian Carney at 14 and not 22, we can pick up Liam Botham at 14 not 25,
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//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Richie "So we take UK athletics sprinters #20 to #80, who likely can't change direction, catch a ball, carry a ball, throw a ball, take a hit or make a hit. We invest our limited coaching resources in them (at the expense of other players of course, because we don't have unlimited coaching resources) and that's going to push us ahead in rugby league?'" why would you expect the cant do these things? They may not have done them but there is no reason to expect they cant. A fairly limited athlete like myself can still change direct, catch, pass and make a hit, and it didnt take me years to learn.
and we only take a fairly small amount of people through to elite level training (something which should be expanded anyway) so its not going to cause us to ignore other players.
Dont you think there are others like Dan Brotherton who just never thought of RL as an option? Maybe we would get more of these guys if we went out and offered the opportunity to them. | | |
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| Quote: cadoo "I agree entirely.
I'd say only Wigan, St.helens, Warrington, Leeds and Huddersfield are up to a high enough standard.
Huddersfield...Kevin Brown and luke Robinson international halfbacks. dont think so
Sam Tomkins...found out (as many others with big super league reputations)
Says it all
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| Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1 | | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
| Wigan |
25 |
619 |
336 |
283 |
40 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
| Hull KR |
25 |
669 |
311 |
358 |
38 |
| Warrington |
25 |
618 |
319 |
299 |
36 |
| Salford |
25 |
492 |
479 |
13 |
30 |
| Leigh |
25 |
548 |
362 |
186 |
29 |
| St.Helens |
25 |
544 |
366 |
178 |
28 |
| |
| Leeds |
25 |
514 |
424 |
90 |
28 |
| Catalans |
25 |
439 |
415 |
24 |
26 |
| Huddersfield |
25 |
434 |
582 |
-148 |
18 |
| Castleford |
25 |
411 |
661 |
-250 |
15 |
| Hull FC |
25 |
320 |
812 |
-492 |
6 |
| LondonB |
25 |
309 |
850 |
-541 |
6 |
| Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
| Wakefield |
23 |
872 |
252 |
620 |
44 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
| Bradford |
23 |
602 |
359 |
243 |
30 |
| Toulouse |
22 |
624 |
322 |
302 |
29 |
| Widnes |
23 |
499 |
403 |
96 |
27 |
| York |
24 |
609 |
419 |
190 |
26 |
| Featherstone |
23 |
560 |
452 |
108 |
26 |
| |
| Sheffield |
23 |
574 |
466 |
108 |
26 |
| Doncaster |
23 |
440 |
513 |
-73 |
21 |
| Halifax |
23 |
457 |
579 |
-122 |
20 |
| Batley |
23 |
364 |
497 |
-133 |
20 |
| Barrow |
22 |
384 |
634 |
-250 |
17 |
| Swinton |
23 |
418 |
590 |
-172 |
16 |
| Whitehaven |
23 |
400 |
772 |
-372 |
16 |
| Dewsbury |
24 |
292 |
793 |
-501 |
2 |
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