I am not an "expert" at flying a Jumbo jet,but I tell you what, I bet I could tell if the pilot was an"expert" or not by the way he flew it.

I am a world away from supporting Agar on his outburst. I honestly believe he has seized upon James Childs's performance as a perfect diversion to his own coaching inadequacies. Nor do I blame the ref for Hull losing, after all, what's to say that with a far more laissez-faire ref, Cas wouldn't have cut loose and scored a hatfull?

Having played to a decent amateur standard before injury set me on the path of officiating, I still have concerns about the lack of a clear and transparent path in referee development and even more so at the lack of any accountability for performance. Simply "not getting the good games" is not enough.

I've stated on other threads that until we can broaden the base of the officiating pyramid, we will always struggle to find the required number of competent officials that we need to keep referee performance at top level. Every speccie, player or club official who views junior referees as fair game to vent their own inadequacies, is to blame for the paucity of officials and nothing will improve until that changes.

I agree with your concerns over full-time officials, especially when they are employed in a dual capacity as both referee and touch judge. The roles can be interchangeable at lower levels, indeed most of our younger touch judges are also Championship referees. I have no problem with that but once a referee makes the full-time, SL list, he should no longer be used as a TJ and that also includes any international games - he should be completely focussed on developing his game "in the middle". I can only think of one current SL referee who is used in such a manner, he happens to be the subject of discussion. Could there be a connection?

I agree that not getting the good games isn't sufficient. But sadly it's all we have.

The problem with the full-time refs is that you can't afford to pay many, and once they're there, you can't justify the salary if you don't play them in SL. So you have a really small pool of talent, and no way in or out of it in the short-term. So if a ref has a loss of form, or just turns out to have been promoted one grade above his ability (a fairly common occurence in every workplace in the world), then you're stuffed. There was no problem in RL which required full-time refs to solve it. I've always thought that the use (or lack of use) of TJs is scandalous in the era of instant comms between the officials, for example.

However, this is the world we have, and we have to deal with it until such time as someone at Red Hall starts asking why Stuart Cummings has been allowed to establish a small unaccountable empire with no apparent benefit to anyone other than its employees.

We went to Saints last year as the team with the lowest score on the bad boys list.
Childs saw fit to completly penalise us out of the game with some utterly baffling decisions.
You cannot adapt to the game of a Ref who hasn't a bloody clue, Simply because he doesn't even know what he is doing most of the time.

Hmmmmmmmm

I can feel an e-mail to Richard Lewis coming on.

Reverting to part-time officials may be viewed as a retrograde step but until someone can prove that full-time has led to tangible benefits to the game, not just the officials, then it is worthy of consideration, no matter what the consequences.

Stuart Cummings also seems to reside under a cloak of invincibility and this, I believe extends to his fiefdom, something that must change. He used to have an "Ask Stuart" column, something that has also bitten the dust. Paying spectators (through the gate or via Sky subscription), as stakeholders in the game, deserve better communication from the man in charge.

Little seems to have changed since I gave up refereeing Alliance and then five years later, 1st team lines. The path to success as a match official owes more to masonic principles than ability.

I'm sorry but as a currently graded and active match official, I feel the need to correct you on a couple of points. There is in fact a very clear pathway for new officials as far as development is concerned. This starts with development officers at a society level and then goes through to the regional development officers which in the case of Yorkshire region is a Hull society member Steve Taylor. The regional development officers then move on those capable of going further to the graded development officers and managers and those that are capable then go on up through the grades as fitness and performance allow. The fact is that some of us acheive our level much lower than we hope or expect and that is something we all have to come to terms with. One thing I do find quite strange is that match officials development comes under operations and NOT under the match officials department which is something I'm sure you knew anyway.

As for the Ask Stuart initiative, I suggest you ask the SL coaches why it was stopped as it was stopped at their request. They didn't like their moans being shown for what they actually are.

I'll also make a point about James Child and the Saints V Hull KR game last year as someone saw fit to mention it. How can you even attempt to blame him for 10 foul play penalties?

James also refereed the HKR v Crusaders game this year with a total of 13 penalties. Strange that for such a pedantic referee don't you think?

Oh and Roy, if I thought you were coming from a point of knowledge or understanding then I'd be worried at your comment but the fact that you made such a comment shows how little you really know. Sorry if that offends.

HKR - Crusaders was Robert Hicks. He's reffed Quins (away) which I wasn't at, and the home game with Catalans where he did a competent job - perhaps something to do with both sides wanting to play RL and not silly b*gg*rs.

Maybe James Child just does not like Hull FC plenty don't

And your proof of that is what, exactly? Because all the available evidence indicates that this is a genuine reaction to what was perceived to be a shocking performance by an official with a history of shocking performances. You can disagree with that reaction, but to suggest that it's all been put on simply as a deflection exercise flies in the face of the sequence of events for a start.

Do you include the tackle by Ben Fisher that clearly saw him hit the ball carrying player on the chest even though Mr Childs decided it was high as just one example?
Infact it was that bad that the commentators kept on talking about how we were getting unfairly hammered and that included the Saints loving Eddie BTW.

You had better go and tell the RFL/SL that then cause they don't think he reffed that one and seeing as I was there neither do I rlIf you dont belive me look here!rl

Irony much?

I think you could argue that the change to full time referees has had a detrimental affect on the system as a whole (if not the quality of top individuals), as it will certainly have had an impact on the numbers who actually want to do the job.

why would anyone with a "proper" career give that up for a few years of being a referee - as a result, why would an ambitious young individual even enter the system knowing that they are never ever going to get any big games?

I'm not sure the fact that the elite match officials are full time necessarily puts anyone off taking up refereeing. The chances of progressing to that level are fairly slim after all and there are plenty of people officiating at amateur levels who have no desire to turn it into a career.

The issue is potentially with emerging officials, who by the time they are considered good enough to move up to full time status will find themselves already with jobs/careers, possibly families to support and mortgages to pay. It's asking a lot to get them to give up their day jobs to have a crack at being a full time match official with no guarantee of security if they are subsequently found to be not up to the standard required.

Based on the games I've seen, I can't say there has been a marked improvement in standards of decision making or fitness since the move to full time, so you have to wonder what the point was? All it did was cause one existing, highly experienced referee to quit.