yeap the grubs are back

We all know this, I think even you know this, but let's spell it out so you can understand.

The ref takes into account initial point of contact, force of impact, intent, degree of recklessness, and yes the outcome. And also whether it might be a professional foul. Let's not forget, head contact is a massive no-no.

Chris Hill clobbered Powell round the chops from behind, clearly reckless, with considerable force and using both arms, knocking him out cold.

You can't use 'reaction tackle' as an excuse, simple as that. Reactionary or not - doesn't detract from the actions or outcome. Yes Hill was desperately trying to stop a try but again that does not excuse the reckless nature of the impact and knocking another player out, especially with today's rules around head impacts.

O'Loughlin stuck an arm out that impacted someone high, clumsy but no real intent and zero damage done. Penalty and crack on. No comparison.

Sure the other team got a red and a yellow card during the game, could be wrong.

BBC live text was laughable implying that Wire were never in the game and that Wigan looked good. From what I saw (which was probably half the game in snatches) Wigan will need to improve massively to be competing for silverware. Looks like Jackson is already missing his spiritual home at the AJ Bell as well...

To be fair both sides discipline was poor. Hill’s was a shocker but there was no intent there whereas Smithies knew exactly what he was doing and should have been off himself.

Leading with a forearm to the throat partington, gouging smithies, ankle tackling 4 man in the tackle four incidents and that the bitchy pushing on the young full back isa and two others to get the ball back you can see there will be some sparks flying this season

It's interesting Austin didn't mention his eyes though, unless I missed that.

All I heard was "he raked my face" or something like that.

He shouldn't be anywhere near the face, but surely if Austin had been gouged he'd be yelling blue murder about his eyes. He's definitely a big enough crybaby.

People can't seriously be defending that Chris Hill "tackle"

If he did then fair enough, I didn't hear it but I was watching on my laptop.

Hard to gauge tonight. Wire looked stronger down the middle with their bigger pack but it's no use looking stronger if you don't win, 12 men or not. Wigan made some good breaks and defended well but decision-making in attack wasn't great.

Both teams at full strength, very hard to say. Wire probably just nick it.

Not really, because if the incident was identical the outcome would be identical.

If hitting someone a few inches lower means the impact is different and the outcome is different, then yes the ref's decision might be different. I'm not sure what the problem is with that.

If you hit someone in the jaw deliberately and knock them out cold, it's intent - a clear red. If you do it accidentally or 'by chance' as you put it, it's reckless and also a red.

FWIW I agree with you to some extent. For example, the number of times we saw Rob Burrow duck into already-extended arms and win a high tackle always drove me mad. The defender simply doesn't have time to react yet they are penalised. However I do think it's different where the defender has 'attacked' the head.

Good game. Not read through the thread but initial feeling is a harsh red card. Player was falling and no intent to hurt imo. Should have been a sin bin.

Not at all, he's become a bit of a 'naughty boy' in his old age.....

Thats how I saw it. Dived in to stop a certain try, Wigan player already falling and he connects with his bicep that would have been round his shoulder.