Kallum Watkins has a Jamaican mother, is from Salford, became an RL fan in Salford, played his amateur RL in Salford, is a professional Rugby League player. Being of Afro-Carribean origin, nor any other, is a barrier or indicator of involvement in, support of, or affiliation with Rugby League.

You and Cronus, have, managed to make my point for me. There could not be a better example of the parochial outlook that i am talking about that you two arguing that a sport with the history Rugby League does, would find the Afro-Carribean community as a demographic we struggle with rather than an opportunity. Perhaps if Salford, and others, were to look at places outside of their immediate areas, and demographics other than white-working class, they wouldnt struggle with attendances so much and the game would be in a much healthier place.

There is an outstanding level of either stupidity or irony here, im not sure which it is but im in awe of it.

I started this reply earlier but got called away, hopefully I can still remember what I wanted to say.

Smokey, sometimes you are your own worst enemy!

I often find you make a great point (which makes me think), but others, challenge it, expand it or simply try and discuss it (as people do on a forum) and that is when you have issues!

It is a discussion board, yet you seem set in that your opinion is the only correct one, get annoyed with any discussion (sometimes even when it agrees with your point) and quickly desend into a lot of 'whataboutery' where even you no longer know the point you were making.

Eg in this thread someone mentioned Manchester had a large student population, your response was something about 4 universities close by in Leeds The number of universities is not important (some have less than 100 students), the point was number of students and that is what the poster intended. You can try and twist the numbers all you like but Manchester (by numerous measures) has the largest student population in Europe! (Manchester Uni or Manchester Met each have 10k students more than Leeds )

I love Leeds as a city, but haven't spent much time there so willnot/cannot compare it to GTR Manchester. Others on this thread who have more experience than me have tried to explain that the 2 cities are different, but your argument is they are not:

If the same applies to both cities as you state, why does Manchester have 2 of the richest and most famous soccer clubs in the world and Leeds have none?

To try and prove your point that ethic diversity was not an issue you used as an example a player of colour, and stated that Asians are well represented in Leeds, yet a quick look through Leeds website does not find 1 Asian fan or player.

In your posts you have confused challenges and opportunity. Several posts in this thread talked about the challenges of having a varied ethic, student population, but the only one who has suggested that is not an opportunity is you.

Maybe, occasionally think others have a valid point. You might be wrong and do what people do on a forum - have an open mind and discuss.

I know people keep mentioning Leeds, but that particular city simply isn't as well known, or as famous, as Manchester and Liverpool across the UK or worldwide.

I dont really think that is having much of an effect on RL attendances.

I'm a Mancunian and I and many others are big rugby league fans.

Broughton/Belle Vue Rangers won one championship and two Challenge Cups which is more than some top level clubs have ever managed to win. By the time they folded that was one more major honour than St Helens had won. They once got a 24000 crowd in a game against New Zealand which is more than some top level clubs have ever got for a game. This club has been resurrected with new backers and some serious future ambitions - Manchester Rangers. I'd bet anyone that in two decades time Rangers have a larger support than Huddersfield.

People kid themselves though when they say Salford and Manchester aren't part of the same place, with Trafford too. All three share the same "Town" or city centre, the same accent, the same culture of music bands and venues and sports like footy and boxing and MMA...you can walk from Whalley Range into Old Trafford into Odsall and you haven't left one distinct city and gone into a distinct borough that isn't a city and then into another distinct city, no matter what the map says, you've just walked into three different areas in the same city.

This about sums it up.

I'd also like to point out that around Manchester there are many rugby union clubs: TraffordMV, Ashton-upon-Mersey, Manchester Sale, Bowden, Kersall, Didsbury, Heaton Moor, Sedgely Park, Eccles, Broughton Park, Auldwinians, Manchester, North Manchester... that's just off the top of my head, there are probably numerous more. Around the same areas for rugby league you have NOWHERE NEAR as many clubs as RU.

You could argue that Manchester is a rugby union city when it comes to the two codes of rugby.

Smokey..... that response to my post is laughable. So you're basically accusing me of being a narrow-minded racist? Trust me, I know my city better than you do and I also know a lot about the people that live here. The points myself and Cronos have made are pretty much spot on and I haven't got the time or energy to indulge your drivel any further. If it makes you happy to believe the nonsense you post then I guess I'll leave you to it..... banging my head against a brick wall isn't a favourite pastime of mine.

The students I’ve socialised with over the years in Leeds have very little interest in rugby league apart from the annual Leeds Met v Leeds Uni match at Headingley. Leeds Rhinos fans tend to come from outside of Headingley to watch the game like I have for many years.

The major difference between the demographic populations of Leeds and Manchester is that the latter is exposed to two of the biggest football clubs in the world whilst the former is exposed to Leeds United.

I won't comment on the students you socialise with but it simply isn't true that Leeds rhinos fans tend to come from outside the immediate area. Also the work done with local universities has been a great success in bringing in a new and diverse fanbase to the rhinos. Btw for balance I'm not holding up Leeds as a perfect example here. Huddersfield have great links with hudds uni and Wigans work in London, the big one, and Heinz are also great examples of the type of thinking I am promoting. Meanwhile Leeds decision to move their WCC games back to headingley is a huge failure of ambition.

That's a relatively recent thing. The failures of rugby league are the failures of rugby league. Not because of the successes of other sports.

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I have no doubt Leeds Rhinos have made some inroads at attracting fans from the cities higher education institutions to matches but I think you overestimate what an impact this has in the grand scheme of things. A Leeds Uni or Met or trinity student attending Leeds Rhinos matches is about as niche as the students attending live netball matches in this city.

The success of other sports in any particular area does have an impact on rugby league thriving in that area. Farsley (I await for someone to correct me on this) has never had a rugby league team but we have a relatively successful football club and cricket doesn't do too bad either. Pudsey has never had a rugby league team either as far as I'm aware but has two cricket clubs and a football club.