I don't agree at all. Hill was a shadow of his former self against Saints. Aside from the outrageous dummy and try I don't recall seeing him.

And let's be honest - it's against the big packs that you really need guys like Hill to perform. You couldn't say he was taking the ball up with any kind of the relish he did two seasons ago. Contrast with Sims who really did put his body in where it hurts time and time again.

I don't like picking players on past form. And we have plenty of good props in SL.

Perhaps, but it's one thing looking decent against Super League teams and another doing it against Australia and New Zealand. Sarginson was one of our better players in the tournament last year. Tomkins is big and athletic with decent hands for a back rower, plus it's one of our weakest positions. His control of the ruck should improve as he carries on re-adapting to the code. Not like we have an abundance of big, athletic second rowers!



Chris Hill ran for 127 metres against us compared to 96 for Sims, made 7.47m per carry compared to Sims 6m, made 32 tackles to Sims' 23 and missed 1 tackle to Sims' 2.

...and has plenty of experience at playing in the centres.






Whitehead? Currie?

Both Whitehead and Currie can be caught out in defence.
Against Internationals the calibre of NZ then we need experienced men in the pack who are proven defenders.
The back row should be Westwood, J Tomkins with O'Loughlin at 13.

I think while Tomkins has played in the centres, why play him out of position if we don't need to? Whitehead yes, hence my naming him in my team! With Currie I think give it another year or two and he'll be playing internationally. I played with him at juniors so always kept an eye on him. He was ill towards the end of 2013 I believe and lost quite a lot of weight and strength, and I think all of 2014 he looked a bit lightweight for a second rower. This year he seems to be breaking a lot more tackles so I think another year or so in the gym and he'll be really threatening. His speed and footwork for a second rower is ridiculous.

by 'a few seasons at SL' you mean 7 games this year, 14 games last year and 10 the year before that?
but its Sutcliffe and Manfredi who should be discounted because of lack of experience?

The only thing J Tomkins will contribute to an international is an England loss thanks to foul play

Yes. You've provided a statistical interpretation of the game. Which, I'm sure you know is like providing a photograph of a person which starts at the kneecap and finishes at the soles of his feet.

Perhaps for a halfback or hooker for example your point would be valid. For example, Cameron Smith might make less metres or make less tackles than James Roby, but this doesn't show how well Smith controls the game, meaning Smith's superiority wouldn't be reflected in the stats.

However, with props, stats tell you most of the things that matter for them. How many carries they make, how many metres per carry and how many tackles they make. This grunt work is the main job of props, and Hill, both in that match in particular, and over the season has outperformed Sims. It's no coincidence that probably the 4 best props in Super League at the minute - Walmsley, Peacock, Hill and Cuthbertson - are the 4 props who have made the most metres.

While stuff like getting a quick play the ball is hard to reflect in stats, there are two ways you can estimate this. Average gain - Hill made 7.47m per carry compared to Sims 6m - so on average Hill had a 1.5m bigger run up every time the defenders tackled him, so is more likely to find his front and get a quick play the ball. Tackle busts - if a player is breaking tackles he's more likely to find a half gap or a weak tackle and get a quick play the ball - Hill made 5 (the most for a forward after Walmsley with 7), compared to Sims with 0. Perhaps there is some obvious key component of a prop's game that I'm missing beyond carries, metres per carry, tackles and tackle busts, that isn't reflected in the stats, but I'd be really curious to find out what it is.

Sarginson crabbing reached epic proportions tonight, culminating in HKR's winning try. Going sideways on an exit set and we are supposed to think he's international quality.

Poor again tonight, shooting out the line and missing tackles, england my a[ir[/ise.

Oh sure - apart from one or two piddling litle answers such asWHO is doing WHAT when it MATTERS MOST?.