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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Starbug "Strange that, I thought Celtic Crusader played in the NL s? With loads of ileagal immigrants, whatever happened to the Inquiry the RFL promised us over that? , the must still be waiting for info from the Border agency'"

Im pretty sure the last owners of Celtic werent the owners of Celtic when they were in the NLs.

Also, you are the only one waiting for info from the border agency. Everyone else read it, saw that for the most part it found no blame to attach to crusaders and moved on with their lives. You seem to have gotten stuck on it and find the fact that you havent read it to be some part of your nonsensical conspiracy theory.

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Michael_Ward "I can't understand how people can continue to defend the franchise system when, in practice, it is demonstrably biased and unfair and has pushed poor clubs with poor business plans in to Super League for reasons that the RFL will never elaborate on.

If we want to keep franchising, then we should start selling tickets to events where we can watch our club officials grovel / beg / bribe / give sexual favours to / date / fool RFL officials for their place in SL. Then we would at least have seen the performances on which our clubs are being judged, because it certainly isn't being judged on sporting performances, nor having a solid business plan in place.

If Rugby League is blatantly going to determine the make up of its league structure with sahdowy deals done behind closed doors, before coming out and lying to the sports fans about it then they will push a lot of people away from the sport.

If the choice is between the flawed but fair 'Promotion and Relegation' system, or the clandestine and clearly unfair 'Franchise' system that has the benefit of giving new SL clubs time to build but rewards clubs for something reasons we can only speculate on.

I have to pick fair over anything else in sport — fair is the entire premise behind sport.

I am open to suggestions that are transparent and fair (despite the RFL's insistence franchising has never been either of these), promotes sport (lets not forget why we're fans, yet ensures financial stability.'"

Would it surprise you massively that even if Bradford's and Crusaders business plans were a poor as the appear from the limited amount of information we have available, they were still better than the clubs who missed out? It wouldnt surprise me.

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Starbug "Those West Ham fans are really happy about winning a little trophy it would seem'"

Yeah, they love this Promotion and Relegation lark.

www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... relegation

On Relegation West Ham needed to find another £40m just to keep from going to the wall, not to administration, from ceasing to exist. Thats on top of the £48m the premier league gives them to handle the massive damage relegation does.

A great example of why we dont need promotion and relegation.
Quote: Starbug "Those West Ham fans are really happy about winning a little trophy it would seem'"

Yeah, they love this Promotion and Relegation lark.

www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... relegation

On Relegation West Ham needed to find another £40m just to keep from going to the wall, not to administration, from ceasing to exist. Thats on top of the £48m the premier league gives them to handle the massive damage relegation does.

A great example of why we dont need promotion and relegation.


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[img:24qn1m99]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/DrGomez/Replacementbanner.jpg?t=1284815933[/img:24qn1m99] On thread drift: [quote="tb":24qn1m99]Tough. Conversations develop. It's their nature.[/quote:24qn1m99] Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.” [i:24qn1m99]There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back![/i:24qn1m99] [b:24qn1m99]Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY![/b:24qn1m99]:24307.jpg



Quote: SmokeyTA "Actually i didnt reference these figures as proof franchising was working. You said that it was P + R which what [iputs bums on seats and generates interest and excitement, and thus media hype. This is something which is lacking in the game now.” [/i I said that if that were the case, it would be easily provable by comparing 'bums on seats' in a P + R world and a franchising world.

I didnt reference those figures as proof franchising worked, simply as evidence that P + R isnt what puts "bums on seats and generates interest and excitement, and thus media hype. This is something which is lacking in the game now.”

Now if you want to say that the increase is down to new stadiam, special offers, whatever then fine, but that simply goes to support the argument that it isnt P +R which what puts [i"bums on seats and generates interest and excitement, and thus media hype. This is something which is lacking in the game now.” [/i it is new stadia, special offers, or whatever else you want to put it down to. But we know, specifically that in and of itself, that on its own, P +R doesnt increase attendences and a lack of it doesnt reduce attendances.



I dont think those two things are linked, and deep down i suspect neither do you. The special offers run by the bulls havnt been put forward by anybody as a serious reason for the Bulls failings. There are much more obvious, as well as much deeper, more structural reasons for their troubles. It has been almost universally acknowledged that the pledge scheme run by the Bulls was a good scheme, that increased attendances dramatically and created a feel-good positive atmosphere at Odsal. It would be wrong to suggest that because in other areas there has been clear mismanagement that means that that offer, in isolation, is a bad idea.

Frankly, i would think it delusional for anyone to believe that what the Bulls achieved with 'the pledge' could have been done under a P+R system.'"

But comparing last season's attendance's to this years, the way you did, neither proves that licencing is doing it, or that we wouldn't be getting higher gates should we bring back P&R. It doesn't mean that P&R doesn't put bums on seats.

It may make little difference to the best supported clubs at the top of Super League, but the battle for relegation would give several teams something to really play for. That does generate interest amongst fans, neutrals and the media. So the bottom half of the SL table and the lower leagues would see an increase in support.

With those lower end clubs battling it out, it raises the standard of the competition and that would be good for SL. It would help the lower end clubs grow their attendances and that will give them better finances to continually improve their standards.

The season is all but over for the bottom 4 clubs and there is little but pride to play for. All they'll get coming to watch that is it's die hards. Because there is just nothing riding on these games. That game, a few years back, between Wakey and Cas for their battle to stay up was a sellout and attracted a national interest. Do you think that their next meeting will do that?

Bradford giving away half price tickets, while in deep financial trouble, seems like lunacy to me. You are probably correct about the pledges though. Bradford, and their fans, are secure in the knowledge that they will never be dropped from the league under the licence system and will get another couple of years to rebuild. Under P&R, they would be in great danger of relegation, should they be forced to sell their best players. I'm not sure if that could be regarded as a ringing endorsement for the system. It's good for Bradford I suppose. That's about it.

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[quote="King Street Cat":1wa9s43t]Some might look at this as being harsh but I think it's fair. When are the Rugby League going to stop persisting with this fantasy expansion. If it hasn't worked by now, it never will! I'm all for reaching out to a wider audience with our game but not at the expense of historical clubs in the homelands.[/quote:1wa9s43t]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6731.jpg



Why would anyone be interested in a contest to determine the worst team in the league? Why would fans take pleasure from knowing that their club is one of, but not the worst team in the league, and actively be encouraged to attend matches because of that? That just seems completely backwards to me. I can't wait until people grow out of this ridiculous notion that relegation makes the league more 'exciting'.

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Quote: headhunter " That just seems completely backwards to me. I can't wait until people grow out of this ridiculous notion that relegation makes the league more 'exciting'.'"


What would a neutral supporter rather go and watch. A dead rubber between the bottom two sides in SL or a relegation fight between the bottom two sides in SL? If they chose to go watch of course.

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[quote="King Street Cat":1wa9s43t]Some might look at this as being harsh but I think it's fair. When are the Rugby League going to stop persisting with this fantasy expansion. If it hasn't worked by now, it never will! I'm all for reaching out to a wider audience with our game but not at the expense of historical clubs in the homelands.[/quote:1wa9s43t]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6731.jpg



Quote: a.n Other "What would a neutral supporter rather go and watch. A dead rubber between the bottom two sides in SL or a relegation fight between the bottom two sides in SL? If they chose to go watch of course.'"
Probably a relegation match, because they are hyped up by people who don't know any better. The reality is that they were error-strewn contests featuring substandard players who were too nervous to make any sort of mistake, and they were inevitably the worst matches of the year. Super League has been infinitely more enjoyable with the focus on the top of the league and teams looking to achieve success, rather than a ridiculous contest to determine who is not the worst team.

This argument is completely irrelevant since there hasn't been any sort of decrease in attendances since licensing began. In fact clubs like Wakefield have seen big increases, so your hypothesis is pretty much garbage.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Would it surprise you massively that even if Bradford's and Crusaders business plans were a poor as the appear from the limited amount of information we have available, they were still better than the clubs who missed out? It wouldnt surprise me.'"


Quote: SmokeyTA "Bradford Bulls provided a solid submission detailing a strategy, tactical plan and targets to achieve improved commercial and financial performance. The club has a solid fan base, a strong brand and good operating structure/governance in place. However the club faces some challenges. These include the local economic environment, poor recent on-field performance and an ageing facility. The application acknowledges these challenges; however the club believes that its business plan for the next three years will move it to a position of sustainability with good prospects for further growth. The club has invested heavily in its youth performance programme in recent years, and it is expected that the club will soon start to reap the rewards of this investment with improved performances and increased numbers of quality club-trained players. Grade B'"


If Bradford could get a Grade B licence whilst of the edge of financial doom then that says a lot about the licensing grading system. It isn't transparent, it isn't thorough and it isn't providing a realistic assessment of the state of a club. On that basis, all the other possible merits of the system are negated as the RFL can't be trusted to make good decisions about the clubs that get in.

And if there aren't 14 clubs financially capable of operating in Super League then SL shouldn't have 14 clubs in it.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "
My question was, what is the problem with the lower leagues that we need to solve.

Wakefield havent been in the lower leagues for nigh on 15 years, im not sure what insight they would have specifically.'"


I'm talking about "SUPER" League. Trades descriptions act offence right there. I know you don"'t want to talk about these problems but some people do. Even Chairmen of average SL clubs (Hull KR), Chairmen of "stable" SL clubs (Hull), Chairmen of successful SL clubs (St. Helens). But let's brush that under the carpet like KPMG obviously did with Bradford's application.

There are clubs in SL which are no better than some in the Championship save for the odd million received from Sky.

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the game is in ruin

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what can be done to resolve this

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[img:24qn1m99]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/DrGomez/Replacementbanner.jpg?t=1284815933[/img:24qn1m99] On thread drift: [quote="tb":24qn1m99]Tough. Conversations develop. It's their nature.[/quote:24qn1m99] Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.” [i:24qn1m99]There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back![/i:24qn1m99] [b:24qn1m99]Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY![/b:24qn1m99]:24307.jpg



Quote: headhunter "Why would anyone be interested in a contest to determine the worst team in the league? Why would fans take pleasure from knowing that their club is one of, but not the worst team in the league, and actively be encouraged to attend matches because of that? That just seems completely backwards to me. I can't wait until people grow out of this ridiculous notion that relegation makes the league more 'exciting'.'"

Perhaps we should just have a league of the top six clubs and just show them on TV. Oh! but wait a minute! someone would still finish in last place. Someone would still be the worst club.

If you can't understand why a relegation battle might be interesting and make for some excellent and exciting games, more so than say a game where absolutely nothing at stake, then you suffer from a distinct lack of imagination.

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I can understand Headhunter's lack of understanding. He doesn't attend matches. He doesn't support a club. Can't really get the proper feel for the issues at stake. Conversely maybe this makes him the best person to judge? Someone on the "outside" looking in?

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Im not going to read the 8 pages already posted on here, my take as a Widnes fan is Franchising is killing the game.

I have been a home and away supporter for 20 years watching Widnes, ups and downs and good and bad days. My family have always been the same, tomorrow we are at home to Catalan Dragons and of the 5 of us that usually attend, only 2 of us are going. At the end of the day our season is over, it was over before it began, this following hot on the heels of 2 previous seasons in the Championship where we had nothing to play for, Where ticking boxes was more important than playing well. Now we keep getting told not to worry we have three years, i dont want three years of this junk. When Widnes were Relegated last time i lived and breathed Widnes, every game meant something, even when it looked like mission impossible we travelled in our numbers because it meant something.

Now it means nothing, if the Dragons put a hundred on Widnes tomorrow then i will probably laugh it off and forget about the game, seriously it wont mean a thing.

If i dont watch Widnes i dont watch Rugby league, and if i dont watch Rugby League my kids dont, and then you lose 2 Generations of supporters because we lost sight of the most important thing in sport, Winning.

In my eyes the Sports Dying a death, and i have played, Coached and Watched Rugby league for more than 25 years. I would rather we were relegated this season due to our poor managment than sit in this league with the mighty few while better teams are locked out, and we never earned the right to be here in the first place.

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Quote: TonyGee "snip'"


This is what every "sports" fan should be thinking.

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