I see. And do you dislike him more than, say Chris Bridge and Ben Westwood, two players who have recently dropped their forearm onto players? Lots of players get up to lots of things on the field. As I have said, before last year's Huddersfield game Bailey's disciplinary record was cleaner than most players.

So, ask yourself, is your "dislike" of Bailey proportionate to what he really "gets up to" on the field or do you perceive he "gets up to" more than he actually does. Is so, why?

No idea, I've never met you. Are you?

Well it wasn't but your response isn't very intelligent and doesn't really tackle any of the issues I raise so I've formed my own judgment about you. Perhaps it's a prejudiced judgment. People do that, whether they realise it or not, you know.

Yes, they can usually be spotted ranting in a disproportionate manner about Ryan bailey's antics.

If that is your view, then so be it. It isn't mine and had you presented a more cogent counterpoint it might have been.

It's gone down the inevitable route that if you don't like a player and he happens to be black then it's because he's black tosh. Bailey is sly, niggly player that get's into opposition players when winning a penalty, into opposition fans when winning a game. There are lots of players that have been known to put a sly dig in here and there but it's his all round general manner that he goes about his business that i and many people don't like. I would level many the same critisisms at cockayne nobody suggest's it's his colour as the reason people dislike him. The only people displaying any prejudice in this argument are the people that brought up colour in the first place.

Your assumption that I automatically forgive players of my team for misconduct, foul play and thuggery on the field says more about you than it does about me, I'm afraid. Bridge didn't get the ban he deserved, and as I've said elsewhere, I didn't see the Westwood incident so I'm not fit to comment on it, however, if the descriptions from Leeds fans on the matter are accurate, then he should have been given a ban as well.



I believe it is, yes. Notice I'm not calling Bailey a thug, the dirtiest player ever, etc, I merely dislike him.



If I am, and display prejudices freely, then every single person I know and speak to in person is a coward for not challenging me on it. When forming my opinion of someone, the colour of their skin isn't even the last thing that matters to me, it simply isn't a consideration at all. People's characters are displayed in how they behave, not in how they appear.



The issues you raised was a long and rambling, unintelligent diatribe that tried to justify your view that everybody is a racist. You are Agent Provocateur, reincarnate, and I claim my £5.



How droll.



We shall agree to disagree then, however, if you go through life branding everybody you meet a racist because there happens to be one person they dislike who has a different skin tone to them, then fair play to you, I wish you every success in being universally seen as a judgemental troll.

What side of the Pennines is Burnley on?

Or for that matter [url=http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8389210.John_Simm_s_shock_at__casual_racism__in_Nelson/Nelson[/url?

It seems you close your eyes to racism on many levels.

I made no assumption, I merely asked a question. I sense a very defensive attitude in our discussion. Why?

You've said the two boys who play for your team deserved bans but I didn't ask that. I asked if you "disliked" them.

yes but why do you dislike him? It's because of his actions on the field. I am trying to demonstrate that his actions are, in reality, no worse than (and in most cases much better than) most of his contemporaries.

I often challenge people on their prejudices towards Bailey. I've been doing it for a while on Southstander. It's perhaps unfortunate you haven't come across anyone as enlightened as me to this point.

I do not hold the view that everybody is racist. I do hold the view that nearly all of us (myself included) are no doubt guilty, on some level, of deep rooted prejudices. These seem to manifest themselves in obvious fashion (to me anyway) in the way supporters reserve a highly disproportionate amount of bile for Ryan Bailey. That is not aimed specifically at you, by the way but generally speaking.

As for your final accusation, how insulting. I may have cadged the odd roll up from him but i do not share his personality disorder.

Noted but I don't "brand" anyone. I merely observe their actions and, if appropriate, comment upon them. Branding someone could be seen as generalising, at best and prejudice at worst. Thank you for branding me a judgmental troll, btw.

Finally, you'll note I haven't judged you or any of the others. I've merely passed comment and asked people to think about why they hate/dislike Bailey to such an extent.

At least you have thought about it in a deeper fashion than most.

Myself and many others on Southstander quite like Ben Westwood. If I made any comments about him dropping the forearm on Brent Webb's face (which as a matter of fact I didn't), then it would be purely in isolation around that incident.

I certainly dislike Bridge, who I think is very lucky he's not been called up to the beak in the past, he's been on the fine line of aggression vs. thuggery for quite a while and his elbow that got him a deserved (but lenient) ban was the RFL seeing that he had crossed that line.

Westwood, I don't dislike but his penalty-athon antics (more often than not he's simply guilty of holding players down for too long in the tackle) very much frustrate me.



Why only towards Bailey? Do JJB, BJB, etc not get singled out for this kind of criticism? I'm sure JJB has given away a few penalties in his time, as you rightly point out all players do on occasion, why do you think we don't have long discussion threads devoted to other players when they commit the cardinal sin of upsetting opposition fans? Why is it, in your view, that Bailey is the only player seemingly singled out for such treatment? Racism isn't the trigger as there are many other players who could equally come in for such stick, yet according to you it's only Bailey, so surely there's another trigger here that's involved. What do you think that is?



I don't disagree with you that we all have prejudices. It's human nature. What interests me is how people act on those prejudices, or react to having them challenged. It also must be stated that prejudice is not confined to holding predetermined beliefs based on the colour of skin, you could for example hold a prejudice that someone who finds himself utterly incapable of defending a players' actions on the field who then goes on to call other people racists is merely a troll. And I'll freely admit that that is currently my predetermined view of you.



Well you certainly share his exact views on this matter, that's for sure.



Apart from saying that the only reason they dislike (to varying levels of strength) Bailey is because of deep rooted prejudices / racism.



You're very welcome





Yes you have. You have consistently argued that the only possible reason people could have for disliking Bailey is because of racism. You can't state that quite generically and then say "But I didn't call you a racist" whenever somebody (quite rightly) takes offence to being branded in that manner. It doesn't work that way.



I don't dislike him to any extreme extent and I certainly don't hate him.



I'm always happy to discuss things, what I abhor is broad generalisation and sweeping statements that the majority who dislike Bailey only do so because of the colour of his skin. Making an ill-informed view of a single person is one thing, and it can be discussed, making an ill-informed and (ironically) prejudiced view of a whole group of people is dim-witted and arrogant.

Coward of the highest order.

Strange that you think I have defended Bailey's actions on the field. Did I not finish my first lengthy post by supporting the disciplinary action the RFL have taken against Bailey for his recent actions?

Your feverish defensive reactions appear to be continually missing the point and assuming I am saying things which I am not.

I know he deplores racism and has been known to stand up against it.

Have I said it was the ONLY reason?

Firstly, I've never used the language such as "the only possible reason". That is your emotive over reaction. Secondly, if you cannot see that I can observe what I perceive as a degree of racism or prejudice in clouding peoples opinions without necessarily judging them for it then I appear to have grossly over estimated your intelligence.

In terms of things that invoke abhorrence I would have thought this would be quite low down the list but it fits with your pattern of overreaction and sensationalism.

I've formed a view about the opinions various people have expressed. I haven't made a view about those people. I don't know most of the people. Only someone dim witted would fail to see the difference.

I know people who hold many different views and opinions about a variety of subjects. However, I am evolved enough to recognise those views, challenge them where necessary without letting the views people hold or opinions they express define them.

Bailey is not the "thug" or cheap shot merchant" that he is labelled as. Certainly no more so than his front row contemporaries in the league. Any other argument is simply unsustainable if you look objectively at his record. If people have come to the conclusion that he is a "thug/cheap shot merchant" then there must be some reason they have reached such a flawed and negative conclusion about the boy.

If it comforts you and eases your abhorrence shall we simply say that, in your case at least, you've reached your view about Bailey not because of some deep rooted yet valiantly suppressed prejudices or racism but because you haven't the first clue about what you're talking about when it comes to rugby league. Would that sit better?

Yeah, but he's gone off to Union so it's their problem now. Why are you bringing Joel Tomkins into this any way?

Would make a good flag this.

This I agree with.



As a general point though when people say things like " I have loads of black friends" and try and justify why they are not racist tend to do that for a reason. I have no doubt people dislike bailey for the colour of his skin but don't think it's the majority