Really?

How many pages is the thread villifying Ben Westwood for dropping on Brent Webb's head with the forearm up to? Had Bailey done that to Chris Riley, there would be a thread on here a dozen pages long before any Leeds fans had got home from the game.

If you genuinely don't think incidents involving Ryan Bailey get blown out of all proportion by the keyboard warriors on here who are eager to label him a coward and a bottler then you've clearly not been paying attention.

And FYI, I don't believe I actually accused you - or anyone else directly - of being racist.

I missed the forearm incident so I'm not qualified to comment, however, if he did do it and hasn't been punished then the RFL disciplinary is living up to it's reputation of being incompetent (FWIW, as far as I'm concerned Bailey's 3 game ban for pushing the ref out of the way is OTT, a slap on the wrists at the most as far as I'm concerned).

As for if Bailey did it to Riley, he did, in the '10 CCF as I pointed out earlier. I don't recall there being such a massive thread about it though - although I could be wrong, I was in the middle of quite a long hiatus from the site at the time.



What I'm saying is that throwaway comments condemning Bailey for what is mostly niggly play (that should be penalised, but often isn't) themselves get blown out of all proportion. It's unfortunately a self-perpetuating problem. The majority of the threads descend in to not people criticising Bailey, but people arguing amongst themselves as to whether or not they're racist for doing so - this thread is a perfect example of it.



I'm sorry but you can't back out of it that way - It is utterly illogical for you to have the opinion that the majority of criticisms levelled at Bailey are the result of deep rooted racism without implying that the majority of people who have criticised him on these forums are racist.

You are clearly accusing a lot of people who post on here of being racist, since you believe it's a primary reason for it, but you don't dare level it at anyone in particular?

I do not like Ryan Bailey for his antics on [and off] the field. I'll site 2 examples and one rumour.

Example one: Picking up the mighty Kevin brown off the floor, smacking him a couple of times, then running behind the Leeds players when the big boys got involved.

Example Two: Lee Radford pastes Bailey on the floor, Bailey does nothing to retaliate, but instead tries to headbutt the monster of a man that is Sean Long.

Rumour: That Bailey headbutted one of our u20s players after the CC final last year. This has been confirmed by a few players at the club that I happen to know personally, but since there's no evidence it remains just a rumour.

These are just 3 examples as to why I don't like Ryan Bailey - the colour of his skin is not one of them. If this has been done by the oh so white James Graham, I would have the same opinion of him. The fact you bring it up, just shows your own hidden racist agenda.

I see. And do you dislike him more than, say Chris Bridge and Ben Westwood, two players who have recently dropped their forearm onto players? Lots of players get up to lots of things on the field. As I have said, before last year's Huddersfield game Bailey's disciplinary record was cleaner than most players.

So, ask yourself, is your "dislike" of Bailey proportionate to what he really "gets up to" on the field or do you perceive he "gets up to" more than he actually does. Is so, why?

No idea, I've never met you. Are you?

Well it wasn't but your response isn't very intelligent and doesn't really tackle any of the issues I raise so I've formed my own judgment about you. Perhaps it's a prejudiced judgment. People do that, whether they realise it or not, you know.

Yes, they can usually be spotted ranting in a disproportionate manner about Ryan bailey's antics.

If that is your view, then so be it. It isn't mine and had you presented a more cogent counterpoint it might have been.

It's gone down the inevitable route that if you don't like a player and he happens to be black then it's because he's black tosh. Bailey is sly, niggly player that get's into opposition players when winning a penalty, into opposition fans when winning a game. There are lots of players that have been known to put a sly dig in here and there but it's his all round general manner that he goes about his business that i and many people don't like. I would level many the same critisisms at cockayne nobody suggest's it's his colour as the reason people dislike him. The only people displaying any prejudice in this argument are the people that brought up colour in the first place.

Your assumption that I automatically forgive players of my team for misconduct, foul play and thuggery on the field says more about you than it does about me, I'm afraid. Bridge didn't get the ban he deserved, and as I've said elsewhere, I didn't see the Westwood incident so I'm not fit to comment on it, however, if the descriptions from Leeds fans on the matter are accurate, then he should have been given a ban as well.



I believe it is, yes. Notice I'm not calling Bailey a thug, the dirtiest player ever, etc, I merely dislike him.



If I am, and display prejudices freely, then every single person I know and speak to in person is a coward for not challenging me on it. When forming my opinion of someone, the colour of their skin isn't even the last thing that matters to me, it simply isn't a consideration at all. People's characters are displayed in how they behave, not in how they appear.



The issues you raised was a long and rambling, unintelligent diatribe that tried to justify your view that everybody is a racist. You are Agent Provocateur, reincarnate, and I claim my £5.



How droll.



We shall agree to disagree then, however, if you go through life branding everybody you meet a racist because there happens to be one person they dislike who has a different skin tone to them, then fair play to you, I wish you every success in being universally seen as a judgemental troll.

What side of the Pennines is Burnley on?

Or for that matter rlNelsonrl?

It seems you close your eyes to racism on many levels.

I made no assumption, I merely asked a question. I sense a very defensive attitude in our discussion. Why?

You've said the two boys who play for your team deserved bans but I didn't ask that. I asked if you "disliked" them.

yes but why do you dislike him? It's because of his actions on the field. I am trying to demonstrate that his actions are, in reality, no worse than (and in most cases much better than) most of his contemporaries.

I often challenge people on their prejudices towards Bailey. I've been doing it for a while on Southstander. It's perhaps unfortunate you haven't come across anyone as enlightened as me to this point.

I do not hold the view that everybody is racist. I do hold the view that nearly all of us (myself included) are no doubt guilty, on some level, of deep rooted prejudices. These seem to manifest themselves in obvious fashion (to me anyway) in the way supporters reserve a highly disproportionate amount of bile for Ryan Bailey. That is not aimed specifically at you, by the way but generally speaking.

As for your final accusation, how insulting. I may have cadged the odd roll up from him but i do not share his personality disorder.

Noted but I don't "brand" anyone. I merely observe their actions and, if appropriate, comment upon them. Branding someone could be seen as generalising, at best and prejudice at worst. Thank you for branding me a judgmental troll, btw.

Finally, you'll note I haven't judged you or any of the others. I've merely passed comment and asked people to think about why they hate/dislike Bailey to such an extent.

At least you have thought about it in a deeper fashion than most.

I certainly dislike Bridge, who I think is very lucky he's not been called up to the beak in the past, he's been on the fine line of aggression vs. thuggery for quite a while and his elbow that got him a deserved (but lenient) ban was the RFL seeing that he had crossed that line.

Westwood, I don't dislike but his penalty-athon antics (more often than not he's simply guilty of holding players down for too long in the tackle) very much frustrate me.



Why only towards Bailey? Do JJB, BJB, etc not get singled out for this kind of criticism? I'm sure JJB has given away a few penalties in his time, as you rightly point out all players do on occasion, why do you think we don't have long discussion threads devoted to other players when they commit the cardinal sin of upsetting opposition fans? Why is it, in your view, that Bailey is the only player seemingly singled out for such treatment? Racism isn't the trigger as there are many other players who could equally come in for such stick, yet according to you it's only Bailey, so surely there's another trigger here that's involved. What do you think that is?



I don't disagree with you that we all have prejudices. It's human nature. What interests me is how people act on those prejudices, or react to having them challenged. It also must be stated that prejudice is not confined to holding predetermined beliefs based on the colour of skin, you could for example hold a prejudice that someone who finds himself utterly incapable of defending a players' actions on the field who then goes on to call other people racists is merely a troll. And I'll freely admit that that is currently my predetermined view of you.



Well you certainly share his exact views on this matter, that's for sure.



Apart from saying that the only reason they dislike (to varying levels of strength) Bailey is because of deep rooted prejudices / racism.



You're very welcome

As a general point though when people say things like " I have loads of black friends" and try and justify why they are not racist tend to do that for a reason. I have no doubt people dislike bailey for the colour of his skin but don't think it's the majority