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Quote: vastman "I knew someone, most likely you would throw that one in.

It's true as far as it goes depending how much you're willing to spin something.

The stark truth is that two wrongs don't make a right.

In fact the only relevance IMO and the one that truly weakens the claims and desires of the expansionist is that fact that we will never be able to expand until we have our own back yard in order.

The expansion of the NRL or football or NFL into new areas has always been done on the back of those particular sports thriving in their heartlands. If we as RL fans in the UK were honest for once and accepted we are a small game that has done well to survive we would be IMO a lot better off.

Catalan are a success because there was always a desire for RL in that area. A club system already existed as did a supporter base and an infrastructure, even RL couldn't bugger that up I HOPE. So even they are not a great example.

I like many others who are often branded luddites by the expansionist brigade are no such thing. RL being played at a high level nationwide it what most including me would love to see. However it has to be done on the back of a successful heartland game not in spite of it.

You cannot make people want a game. You have to create a game that those who don't have it look at and want. It is these people who drive expansion rather than some outside body imposing a team on them.

The trick is knowing the difference between a small but load bunch of enthusiast and a real demand in the area. It's here where the RFL have been a woeful failure IMO.

FWIW I think the last chance we had in the UK was in the early 90's in Wales before the RFU went pro. There was real disillusionment with RU combined with a large number of well known proper welshmen playing RL. We missed that boat and IMO no amount of RFL funding will reverse that loss, the chance has gone. RU is king again in South Wales and North Wales IMO simply can't support a team long term.

So regardless of whatever other faults exist in our game the RFL's record on expansion is crap compared to nearly all other sports. And for me the answer lays in having a genuinely strong heartland game first and not later.'"


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Quote: vastman "I knew someone, most likely you would throw that one in.

It's true as far as it goes depending how much you're willing to spin something.

The stark truth is that two wrongs don't make a right.

In fact the only relevance IMO and the one that truly weakens the claims and desires of the expansionist is that fact that we will never be able to expand until we have our own back yard in order.

The expansion of the NRL or football or NFL into new areas has always been done on the back of those particular sports thriving in their heartlands. If we as RL fans in the UK were honest for once and accepted we are a small game that has done well to survive we would be IMO a lot better off.

Catalan are a success because there was always a desire for RL in that area. A club system already existed as did a supporter base and an infrastructure, even RL couldn't bugger that up I HOPE. So even they are not a great example.


I like many others who are often branded luddites by the expansionist brigade are no such thing. RL being played at a high level nationwide it what most including me would love to see. However it has to be done on the back of a successful heartland game not in spite of it.

You cannot make people want a game. You have to create a game that those who don't have it look at and want. It is these people who drive expansion rather than some outside body imposing a team on them.

The trick is knowing the difference between a small but load bunch of enthusiast and a real demand in the area. It's here where the RFL have been a woeful failure IMO.

FWIW I think the last chance we had in the UK was in the early 90's in Wales before the RFU went pro. There was real disillusionment with RU combined with a large number of well known proper welshmen playing RL. We missed that boat and IMO no amount of RFL funding will reverse that loss, the chance has gone. RU is king again in South Wales and North Wales IMO simply can't support a team long term.

So regardless of whatever other faults exist in our game the RFL's record on expansion is crap compared to nearly all other sports. And for me the answer lays in having a genuinely strong heartland game first and not later.'"


well said vastman a lot of sense there but,

quite right about the Catalans but whereas the RFL are FOR expansion to places like Perpignan & Toulouse the real threat peversely could come from SKY themelves who are contracted to bring two live games plus any future play-offs from Perpignan which is a big drain on their resources.It may be good for the RFL & the visiting fans & certainly the local community which has embraced the SL for obvious reasons tho' bad economoically for SKY

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Quote: vastman "I knew someone, most likely you would throw that one in.

It's true as far as it goes depending how much you're willing to spin something.

The stark truth is that two wrongs don't make a right.

In fact the only relevance IMO and the one that truly weakens the claims and desires of the expansionist is that fact that we will never be able to expand until we have our own back yard in order.

The expansion of the NRL or football or NFL into new areas has always been done on the back of those particular sports thriving in their heartlands. If we as RL fans in the UK were honest for once and accepted we are a small game that has done well to survive we would be IMO a lot better off.

I like many others who are often branded luddites by the expansionist brigade are no such thing. RL being played at a high level nationwide it what most including me would love to see. However it has to be done on the back of a successful heartland game not in spite of it.

You cannot make people want a game. You have to create a game that those who don't have it look at and want. It is these people who drive expansion rather than some outside body imposing a team on them.

The trick is knowing the difference between a small but load bunch of enthusiast and a real demand in the area. It's here where the RFL have been a woeful failure IMO.

FWIW I think the last chance we had in the UK was in the early 90's in Wales before the RFU went pro. There was real disillusionment with RU combined with a large number of well known proper welshmen playing RL. We missed that boat and IMO no amount of RFL funding will reverse that loss, the chance has gone. RU is king again in South Wales and North Wales IMO simply can't support a team long term.

So regardless of whatever other faults exist in our game the RFL's record on expansion is crap compared to nearly all other sports. And for me the answer lays in having a genuinely strong heartland game first and not later.'"


widnes for wakey in SL is going to get the backyard right

that post is hilarious given you are a fan of a club who has continually promised the RFL theyll improve and never do.

its clubs like wakey who arent going anywhere as to why progress is so slow.

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Quote: dally messenger "widnes for wakey in SL is going to get the backyard right

that post is hilarious given you are a fan of a club who has continually promised the RFL theyll improve and never do.

its clubs like wakey who arent going anywhere as to why progress is so slow.'"


Fellow Wakey fans, don't feed this troll.... icon_iamwithstupid.gif

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Quote: vastman "I knew someone, most likely you would throw that one in.

It's true as far as it goes depending how much you're willing to spin something.

The stark truth is that two wrongs don't make a right.'"


Or that the failure of Paris last time doesnt prove that Toulouse (or even Paris again) would fail next time. And that Crusaders Administration doesnt prove RL doesnt or wont work in Wales anymore than Trinity's CVA doesnt prove RL doesnt or wont work in Wakefield

Quote: vastman "In fact the only relevance IMO and the one that truly weakens the claims and desires of the expansionist is that fact that we will never be able to expand until we have our own back yard in order.'"
or that the two things are independent and the evidence you are presenting doesnt prove your conclusion.

Quote: vastman "The expansion of the NRL or football or NFL into new areas has always been done on the back of those particular sports thriving in their heartlands. If we as RL fans in the UK were honest for once and accepted we are a small game that has done well to survive we would be IMO a lot better off.'"
it really really wasnt. The NFL dropped almost all of its heartland clubs and moved to big cities, all in a very short space of time.

Quote: vastman "I like many others who are often branded luddites by the expansionist brigade are no such thing. RL being played at a high level nationwide it what most including me would love to see. However it has to be done on the back of a successful heartland game not in spite of it.'"
it doesnt. I know what you are arguing here sounds nice, and sounds like what people want to hear, but it just isnt true. A strong heartland is important. Expansion is important. But they are different, they are separate, they arent interlinked.

There is a desperation in the game to try and link the two ideas. That Wakefields, Hull KRs, Widnes, Blackpool's financial struggles are linked to the expansion of the game elsewhere, but they arent. It isnt because of Les Catalans that people didnt go watch blackpool. It isnt because of Crusaders that Wakefield cant seem to keep their crowds up. Hull KR didnt lose £3m over the course of their first years in SL because of Quins.

Quote: vastman "You cannot make people want a game. You have to create a game that those who don't have it look at and want. It is these people who drive expansion rather than some outside body imposing a team on them.

The trick is knowing the difference between a small but load bunch of enthusiast and a real demand in the area. It's here where the RFL have been a woeful failure IMO.'"
you also cannot sell a game in what is a very competitive market by giving them the worst of your product. The idea that a club can be built from enthusiasts, to an amateur team, to a semi-pro club, to an SL club is pie in the sky. It has never been done in the history of the game. Only one club in the past 90 years have gone from amateur to semi-pro and none to pro. 'Organic growth' is a myth in our game.

Quote: vastman "FWIW I think the last chance we had in the UK was in the early 90's in Wales before the RFU went pro. There was real disillusionment with RU combined with a large number of well known proper welshmen playing RL. We missed that boat and IMO no amount of RFL funding will reverse that loss, the chance has gone. RU is king again in South Wales and North Wales IMO simply can't support a team long term.'"
Well that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. But we will never know if we dont try, we have a good opportunity to try right now, the first signs in north wales were very encouraging. Lets stick with it.

Quote: vastman "So regardless of whatever other faults exist in our game the RFL's record on expansion is crap compared to nearly all other sports. And for me the answer lays in having a genuinely strong heartland game first and not later.'"
firstly, as i have already said the strength of our heartlands and expansion are two different things. Secondly, how much stronger do you want our heartlands to be. We are stronger than any other game bar football in our heartlands.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Hull KR didnt lose £3m over the course of their first years in SL...'"


That's right, they didn't.

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Quote: Mild Rover "That's right, they didn't.'"

they probably shouldnt file accounts that say so then, its a little bit naughty

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 417462.stm
Quote: Mild Rover "That's right, they didn't.'"

they probably shouldnt file accounts that say so then, its a little bit naughty

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 417462.stm


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Quote: SmokeyTA "they probably shouldnt file accounts that say so then, its a little bit naughty


'debts of £3.16m up to the end of November 2008'. Nowhere on the article does it say that this was all incurred since their promotion in 2007.

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RL will never be popular outside of heartlands until we get at least one game a week on FTA TV. Most people don;t even know it exists let alone decide if they like it or not.

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Quote: Dnats Ynnepeerht "'debts of £3.16m up to the end of November 2008'. Nowhere on the article does it say that this was all incurred since their promotion in 2007.'"


Ta - you said it so I didn't have to.

2007 - about £450k lost. 2008 - similar. 2009 - £298k lost. So unless you happen to know that we did about £1.8m this year, you've been a slightly naughty Smokey. Or a bit dim, whichever you prefer. icon_wink.gif
It isn't a great situation, without people making it out to be worse still. Current creditors' bill is £1.52m.

So vaguely back on topic, an increase in Sky cash would be welcomed by a good number of clubs. £3m sounds like wishful thing, sadly.

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Quote: JB Down Under "RL will never be popular outside of heartlands until we get at least one game a week on FTA TV. Most people don;t even know it exists let alone decide if they like it or not.'"


What is the challenge cup ratings like? One match per week on FTA is never gonna happen though.

For now BBC could at least start putting the highlights show at a more attractive time for viewers.

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Quote: sanjunien "well said vastman a lot of sense there but,

quite right about the Catalans but whereas the RFL are FOR expansion to places like Perpignan & Toulouse the real threat peversely could come from SKY themelves who are contracted to bring two live games plus any future play-offs from Perpignan which is a big drain on their resources.It may be good for the RFL & the visiting fans & certainly the local community which has embraced the SL for obvious reasons tho' bad economoically for SKY'"


2 things , it isn't expansion to Perpignon and Toulouse , they already play pro RL there

The argument you make is the same one I make for not having Toulouse in the Championships , except the drain is on much needed RFL central funding that one would hope would be spent on the Championships , unless of course the only reason they are in the Championship is a pre entry for SL , so the money spent will be ' SL ' money

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Quote: Ceejames "football does not have a salary cap.'"

and it's practically bankrupt as well!!!!

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Quote: Starbug "2 things , it isn't expansion to Perpignon and Toulouse , they already play pro RL there

The argument you make is the same one I make for not having Toulouse in the Championships , except the drain is on much needed RFL central funding that one would hope would be spent on the Championships , unless of course the only reason they are in the Championship is a pre entry for SL , so the money spent will be ' SL ' money'"


In real terms how much would the lower league structure be any different if the £250000 you quote remains in the RFL coffers ? if the RFL gave the money instead to the twenty or so C/C1 clubs annually would things change that dramatically ? In any case i'm sure the wise men at Red Hall would find other ways to waste the money
Expansion is a dead cert if/when TO enter SL - crowds will increase,not neccesarily from Toulouqse but it's surrounding areas ie 50/100 mile raduis (southern france is mainly 'rural' - fans are not on the doorsteps of the clubs as in the north of england - france is a big country !)
with respect,you can't compare english & french RL crowds - a simple equation - Limoux will attract say 1000 + crowd which represents about 10% of their population - how many C/C1 clubs can boast 10% of their population at their home matches ? - i'm sure Carl Hall at Donny would sell his granny for that !!! maybe Leigh also !

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Quote: sanjunien "In real terms how much would the lower league structure be any different if the £250000 you quote remains in the RFL coffers ? if the RFL gave the money instead to the twenty or so C/C1 clubs annually would things change that dramatically ? In any case i'm sure the wise men at Red Hall would find other ways to waste the money
Expansion is a dead cert if/when TO enter SL - crowds will increase,not neccesarily from Toulouqse but it's surrounding areas ie 50/100 mile raduis (southern france is mainly 'rural' - fans are not on the doorsteps of the clubs as in the north of england - france is a big country !)
with respect,you can't compare english & french RL crowds - a simple equation - Limoux will attract say 1000 + crowd which represents about 10% of their population - how many C/C1 clubs can boast 10% of their population at their home matches ? - i'm sure Carl Hall at Donny would sell his granny for that !!! maybe Leigh also !'"


The ' structure ' , wouldn't be any different , nobody has suggested it would , it is however 12 grand per club that could be spent on marketing the competition and the clubs locally , if the money was just handed over to the clubs there wouldn't be any ' dramatic ' change no , but then again would the SL clubs turn down another 100 grand if it was offered ?

How is ' expansion a dead cert ' if Toulouse Olympic [ a professional RL club ] continue to play proffessional RL , it would be no different ' expansion wise if Leigh got in SL , unless you mean SL expansion , not RL expansion , is that what you meant , if so make yourself clear , there is a difference

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