Aussies think he's ? That's a great anecdote but is that coming from anyone who can actually have an intelligent conversation about the game? Or just your typical lad down the pub? Either way it's blatantly obvious he isn't or average.

Every argument I've seen about him go, "he can't defend!" The stats show he's no worse in that department than most other top fullbacks, "okay but he's in attack!" Again stats show he's one of the better fullbacks in that department, "yeah well, ben barba ran past him once!" Ok that's convinced me, he is rubbish!

Do you see my point? It's just sweeping generalisations time and time again.

Well it did, just it was in the World Cup 2 years ago not last year, my mistake.

Another one with a short memory jumps on the bandwagon.

"He's been found out by the end of his time there"

He only won Man of Steel the year before he left then was a key player once more in our double winning team in his final year, but okay then.

The thing about Sam is that he polarises opinions. But I had to laugh when it was suggested that Wire had a chance to sign him, they were practically wetting themselves with excitement on their boards.

The truth is that EVERY Super League club would want him. Things haven't worked out particularly well in NZ, but he hasn't been a disaster and I also believe due to the presence of Shaun Johnson, they haven't got the best out of him - which our NZW supporter above, agreed with.

Leeds wouldn't. Hardaker is a better fullback, hey may not be a better pivot, but is better at every other part of fullback play.

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on two counts. Firstly Hardaker is a good runner, but his runs don't turn into chances, he makes little and he scores few. And secondly Leeds would kill to have Tomkins partner Sutcliffe at half back - so as they say in Yorkshire - "Don't talk soft!"

I haven't bitten on this thread because there is the standard bitter nonsense flying about, but it's good to see some sense being spoken.

When Michael Maguire moved Sam to FB he didn't just shove him there and say "you're a fullback now". He changed the way the team played, ensuring that our attacking structures meant ST got the ball in his hands as often as possible in as much time and space as possible. The result was devastating, and contrary to what some think, he was never "found out" - Bilko posted a few weeks ago, between 2010-13, ST either scored or assisted 214 tries in 125 appearances - that's phenomenal. Sam never really played with a running half at Wigan - he was the main running threat.

Compare this to his time at NZW, he doesn't touch the ball anywhere near as often as he used to at Wigan. He's used more as a wide playmaker and plays much more flat than he used to. So his passing skills are still utilised but his running game is almost none existent as Johnson dominates this role. For me, if the Warriors were bringing ST in as the "marquee" big-money signing, then they should play in a style that gets the most out of him. Bottom line he joined the wrong NRL club IMO. Has he been worth the big money? Probably not, but he definitely hasn't been a complete flop either. I just hope he can stay injury free for the rest of 2015 and get up to some decent form.

We are talking fullbacks. Hardaker under the high ball, kick return and try saving/stopping defence is better than Tomkins. Hardaker saves more than he scores. Hardaker is a natural try score throughout his career. That's not his job at Leeds but when needed is a great finisher. Tomkins hasn't played in the halves for so long it's not even a debate.

And by the way - don't get me wrong. I think Hardaker is an excellent player. He has been unfairly treated because of his misdemeanours and yet he's had his strongest season to date. He is a good runner, but I wouldn't say he is devastating like Sam was at Wigan. Zak hasn't really been exposed at the highest level yet - international/NRL - so maybe we'll see?

I don't know what you mean about the half back thing? Sam will end up there just as Darren Lockyer did. He has all the skills and played most of his life there anyway.

Its interesting to hear this testimony from a Wigan fan. Whilst I'm not implying Tomkins is anything but a phenomenal talent ball in hand, I did often think that the wigan system showcased/exaggerated/supercharged his talents by working very hard (and very well) to give him space to run at.

I don't think Hardaker gets this benefit at Leeds, maybe because of the presence of super centres Watkins and Moon, maybe because McDermott can't nail those wide moves as well as McGuire/Wane, but the more I see of Hardaker, the more he convinces me that he's the better all round full back. Sam's not here for me to see and give an account for himself though, so my judgement may be a tad unfair.

More than anything, though, I'm just bitter at the way Johnny Lomax's career's gone

I'm not convinced the Warriors style of play is the main reason Tomkins hasn't stood out as much in the NRL as he did prior to he left. He's probably the Warriors' most creative player, and his running and passing coming into the line is still the strongest area of his game.
His defence isn't as bad as it's made out to be either, he's error prone, but so are FB's more highly rated than he is. Where I think he's struggled the most is his kick returns. I don't have the stats, but from watching him I don't think he returns the ball as well as other FBs, he doesn't look as quick to me either and I think that's blunted his effectiveness somewhat.

I've said it for a couple of years now that he should move back to 6. His skill set is now more suited to that, and his weaknesses won't be as exploitable playing there.

Just to add, I'd definitely take him at Leeds, but not as a FB.

Anther perceptive sensible post in what is becoming a reasonable debate.

He prefers to offload to the winger on a kick return if he doesn't spot a gap, with the intention of getting a quick play the ball to then take off(eg Away at Wire in the Challenge Cup QF 2011 IIRC).

I'll fix that.



No, it's because he's a cowardly little rat.

That worked in 2011, is it the most effective method for the 2015 version of Tomkins? I'm not sure.

Good player is Hardaker but you're incredibly deluded if you believe that. Leeds fan I take it? You have to be with a statement like that.