There are three trophies already.

Where would we find the time to add a new knockout comp to the calendar?

Exactly - it's a fantasy to imagine that there's a league structure that can make every game matter right to the end of the season, that won't massively disadvantage those teams who have been consistently good for the whole year; other, much higher profile sports, seem to cope perfectly well with the idea that as a season draws to a close, the front runners have silverware to play for, while the stragglers are left to draw their own achievements from the season as a whole.

Maybe it's got something to do with the attitude of the club and its supporters? For example, I haven't heard the Wakefield chairman, or fans, calling for a change to the competition rules now we've managed to scrape in to the 8; all the opinion I've seen is that being safe for 2017 by July was a good achievement, and the Super 8's are probably a chance to introduce some young players and recruit from a stronger position. "Every minute matters" was probably an error in marketing terms - it doesn't, it never will and you're tilting at windmills trying to make it so.

We do know its not working, we know why its not working, what are we going to learn about the system in the next 8 years that we dont already know?

What we are seeing now is the new response to things in RL, Something is hard, so lets just pretend its impossible and give up.

See also, Player production, the WCC, increasing crowds, building new facilities.

Literally, the main argument in favour of this system now is to not change purely for the sake of not changing.

The problem is, there is an entire competition that is completely pointless. That is a negative. You are never going to get an entire season where every team has something to play for unless you have a very short season. But this system has increased the number of games Wakefield will play by 3 and those games mean nothing.

And yes im sure Wakefield fans are happy they are 'safe by july' but how attractive is that going to be for the next 6 weeks? How many people will bother with the super 8's next year if Wakefield carry on as they have started?

When the split happened, there were 9 points from 6th to 12th, and 7 from 6th to 11th. A 28 game season would have given us another 10 points to play for.

It's funny on a topic lamenting a relentless change in structure the one thing that has been a constant, and a roaring success - The Grand Final, once again has the old chestnut of people suggesting it should be scrapped ''I've always thought top o'league should be champs me, like''. The grand final has been around for 18 years it's cemented into the games calender, it has built up some history and some tradition. It's not going to be scrapped, it's here to stay.

No doubt the route with which you get there will be though, and many more times.

Well, we haven't seen how a team fares after promotion via this system (or how a team fares from relegation). We haven't seen whether the gap between 4th place and 7th/8th is always going to be unattainable. We haven't given enough time to see clear trends in crowds, or financial results. It's too early to write it off IMO and it may be that in the fullness of time you're proven correct.

Whether it's working or not is subjective. You obviously feel it's not working and never will, which is fine, I've seen you offer this opinion on threads before and know you were a fan of the licensing system. Both systems have their merits and their negatives, but licensing was far from perfect too.

If you had a completely clean slate, how would you structure the competitions?

Fully agree. The GF has been a huge success story.

The people who want to scrap playoffs/GF are usually those who follow football closely, who prefer their system of declaring champions, unaware of the history and tradition within our game of using the playoff/GF method.

The way they pour scorn on it saying "it's only a money making exercise" or words to that effect, just show how marrow minded they are. In a sport that badly needs money, success stories & attention, they'd happily scrap it - bonkers.

There are a lot of short sighted folk on here. A little like James Rule.

Too many want success instantly without having to build for it.

Look at Hull this season compared to last season. In 2015, they scrape into the top 8, with no chance of making the top 4, however they were comfortable in the knowledge they would not be anywhere near the possible trap door of relegation. This allowed Hull to field may youngsters / academy players (Abdull, Turgett, Downs, Fash, Logan plus a few others) to gain some SL experience. This also enabled any player with an injury to concentrate on getting fit for 2016 without the possibility of being drafted in and aggravating that injury.

I firmly believe, that experience has helped Hull this season.

Trouble is it's a very tough sport. In many ways too tough to play every week and certainly not when there's nothing at stake. That's if the intensity isn't to dip substantially that is. We all know league is probably the most compelling sport when two well-matched and motivated teams feature. The downside is the contrast when the teams are less motivated - not that I blame them, they take a pummelling every week and wouldn't be human if they didn't drop it a notch or two. Few other sports face this dilemma; boxing would, were the fighters expected to fight every week; footballers would were they to take the proper kicking that many of them deserve; union would were their squads smaller. But you're right to say there'll always be dead rubbers, problem is that the game's entertainment value suffers from them disproportionately.

If a team is promoted and fares ok is that proof the system works?

There are a lot of shifting goal posts for this system, the claims of what it can be expected to achieve are getting smaller and smaller, the bar for success is getting lower and lower, some just being written off completely.

Don't get me wrong, i have no problem in principle with us sticking with something because we know what success looks like and we know how we are going to get there, even if it isnt immediately apparent. I would have no problem with sticking with this system, even now, if there was logic that took us from here to where we need to be, But there isnt. No-one is arguing for this system because its going to bring us closer to the NRL, nobody is arguing for this system because it means we will bring through better players, nobody is arguing for this system because it will expand the game in a clear and sustainable manner, nobody is arguing for this system because it will attract the biggest names, nobody argues for it because it will provide a clear pathway for us to become the biggest rugby comp on the planet.

They just argue that these things are impossible so we shouldnt bother with them and be happy with how brilliant a single 6k crowd is for fev.

Ignoring Rule's comments.
I dont think that clubs finishing down the ladder should expect to be seriously considering having a push at becoming Champions.
The tag line of "every minute matters" at the time was nonsense and still remains so.
If clubs cant have a serious dig at the title (and they shouldn't really get the chance if they finish 6,7 or 8 out of a 12 team comp),
they at least have the chance to get a head start for the following season.
The system is horribly flawae, purely on the basis that the Champions could theoretically come from 8th spot, a club could be relegated from 9th and a club could be promoted from 4th in the Championship.
Of course, none of these events haven't happened and nor should they but, for them even to be possible is just wrong.

One of the main reasons for the structure change was to give clubs in the Championship a chance to gain promotion but, this system is just niot necessary.

Either go for 1 up, 1 down or IF we are hell bent on having the drama of the MPG, then have top of The Championship play bottom of SL to decide who gets the nod.

Lets get back to a sensible competition (minus the gimmicks) and enjoy RL as a top class sport and if we are serious about expanding the comp, then we have to go for some form of licensing.

In my mind this new system is actually more closed than either of the two previous models.

Right now we are asking small clubs on small budgets to try and compete against SL teams for a long period with little time for proper preparation due to uncertainty. It is going to be extremely hard for most of the championship chubs to come up, especially without over stretching themselves or being bankrolled. This system gives the illusion of promition but IMO is the least likely and also least safe way of providing it.

1 up 1 down works, is a genuine reward for a great season, and once a team knows they are going up they have some time to prep. Obviously the main issue with this is the potential for Yo-Yo clubs.

IMO franchising done right is the best choice for promotion/expansion is applied fairly and consistently. Lay out a very clear set of guidelines and once a club is hitting all or the majority let them through the door. This gives Championship proper targets which should be good for them and the game long term, while hopefully putting less stress on them long term.

All I know is the current system is a bit mad, and IMO promotes short term is amongst the top of the championship and bottom of SL, this needs to be avoided if we ever wish to develop our great game.

I like the format but wouldnt mind tweeking it a bit like in the super 8 you could get 3 points for an away win and two points for an away draw and 1 point if the away team comes within 6 points.
This gives teams with more away fixtures a small chance/reward.

But why would we give the teams that finished 5/6/7/8 more chances/rewards?

Why reward 2/3/4 also ??? Your rewarding failure. It's not like they have won anything.