Saints set the high standard 4 years ago and play tough, with intensity like an NRL side.

Its up to the rest of the league to up their game to get to that standard, Catalan and Wigan had a brief period but couldn't keep it going all season. I thought Leeds put in a great effort and had a few players missing that might have gave them more scoring points. At the start of the season I tipped them to get into the play offs, Rohan Smith has set a good base line and I think will feature more strongly next season.

As for other teams, they need to get their finger out, we probably have around 8 teams who are playing way below standard on and off the pitch.

Shouldn't they already be all over the RLWC? Tickets sales to date suggest that it's a WC that's having money flushed down it!

Have they spoken with our state funded broadcaster yet? There's quite an important match being played next weekend (not to mention two tomorrow) but

There is a big problem with neutral support not bothering with our finals anymore. Saints-Leeds is one of our better combinations in terms of fanbases but still Old Trafford far from full. Know money is tight right now but it wasnt as tight a year ago when tickets first went on sale, the Marketing just isn't good enough.

It’s not an easy sell though… which isn’t an excuse not to try to do better on that front, just an acknowledgement of where we’re at. We don’t have many highly competitive well balanced contests with great uncertainty of outcome or many stories to weave a compelling narrative around. It’s like we’ve combined the worst parts of the WWE and CFL.

While, I’d love to see a wider variety of clubs in the GF and a different winner, even that could be a tough sell I reckon. Perceptions of clubs are so entrenched that I suspect that a surprise Hudds-Salford GF, for example, would be perceived/framed as mostly a failure of Leeds-Wigan-Saints.

It's an often used term on here, but what do you actually mean by marketing, who is the targeted recipient and by what means do you propose that will get a return on the investment? How are you going to incentivise neutral fans to pay out if they simply aren't interested in the teams or product on show?

In its heyday the CC Final was the singular RL showcase event for the RL community - but now with SL GF, Magic Weekend, Big Bash, Playoff Finals etc you can only tap the market so many times.

Yes you are an NRL side,right down to undermining the officials and authority's when you don't get your own way. Ea-moan McManus makes the likes of Bobby Fulton look like a....err Saint!

Thats the problem, they rely on sending out emails and aiming social media posts at people who already follow their accounts. They are trying to milk the same dwindling audience.

Where are the billboard ads, the radio ads, TV ads, cheap tickets for kids in Manchester if an adult brings them along etc.

Well, that's the question - are billboard ads, radio ads etc an effective way to attract a new audience ? Do cheap tickets generate a sustainable growth (or do people just expect cheap tickets forever)?

I've seen RU clubs have massive event games at Wembley - yet it seems to have little impact on sustainable growth in terms of Premiership rugby attendance.

It always concerns me that clubs, such as Saints & Wigan have huge onfield success but little market penetration outside their immediate area - and even the most aggressive billboard campaign is unlikely to change that.

Has the game ever grown in term of attendance or have any crowd increases just been proportional (or not) to a growing local population - 100+ yrs on and I'd guess for most clubs their fans are still predominantly drawn from 5-10 mile radius - whilst clubs on the doorsteps of Liverpool & Manchester continue to miss out on engaging with those populations.

But I also suppose we need to consider how 'measures of success' might have changed - and whether physical attendance is the right marker, or is it social media engagement, TV viewing figures, YouTube streams etc.

Or maybe the Saints Club are more professional and the RFL/Disciplinary are more amateur.

What we saw was Saints making a second appeal because the disciplinary response themselves was a frivolous one, all fans over this season have said the disciplinary is not fit for purpous. Saints have now exposed that situation and we may see some of balance being intoduced next year....in saying that I don't think I will hold my breath on that.

The first test is what will they do with Austin twisting the ankle of Lomax in the tackle yesterday.

IMO the test is what LMS gets for grabbing the touch judge. Brad O'Neill got 2 games for bumping into a ref who joined the defensive line.

Full credit to Leeds for getting to the final, they deserved to be there after their turn around over the last few months, however I wish Wigan got there. There was only ever 1 team in it last night and Wigan would, in my opinion, have made it a better final.

All good points. And if the RFL have done some research and decided it isn't worth the investment then fair enough but i'm cynical that they have, its the same approach to the ticket sales every year. They go on sale a year early with a half hearted early bird discount, then a brief mention of a group discount then silence til 1 week to go where we hope two big sides have made the final (had Salford upset Saints last week you could have dropped 10-15k off that crowd instantly) there needs to be more sales in the bag before the finalists are announced.

And yes you are correct that Unions big event games haven't massively increased crowds for standard games but I bet it really helps both the clubs and the Premiership show sponsors footage of packed out games at Wembley, Twickenham etc when they discuss terms.

In fairness I did hear a Radio ad for the world cup in the car yesterday and as it was Capital Yorkshire it was fairly targeted for the first game at Headingley.

I haven't watched the last 2 finals because i'm just not interested anymore. It's the same teams all the time in the final, ie Saints, Wigan, Leeds. I get it's different opposition for them but i never expect a different outcome except these teams winning so it becomes really boring. None the fault of these teams as they are the best so can't argue with them winning, but it's nothing new.

I mean people are saying nuetrals wont pay to see the same sides play but when new teams make finals the attendances are even worse.

I think nuetrals and the occassion have lost the appeal. We dont exactly have superstars performing at our showpieces.

I think the sport on this side of the world has never quite adjusted to full time professionalism in terms of restructuring. The concept of the ‘RL family’ came to be seen as one of those laughably naive 20th century concepts - like the ‘American Dream’. Things became very unbalanced, seemingly permanently so, and lots of resentments built up. I saw Craig Harrison saying that the Summer Bash at Headingley did badly this year, in part because fans of Championship clubs didn’t want to put money into the coffers of a big SL club. I have no interest in watching Saints, Wigan or Leeds win their umpteenth Grand Finals. I’m quite looking forward to the WC, but not with a great deal of direct interest in Shaun Wane’s England team.

Regarding new teams, the years Salford made and Cas made the GF weren’t outliers for attendance particularly.

Hopefully the IMG proposals will help to address some of these issues and rekindle some interest and optimism.