FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Question about cannonball tackles. |
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| Quote: Gronk! "It comes under undue pressure.'"
What? Does it?
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| It was right Ellis went for ten, Isa should have gone for ten, and Atkins should have gone for ten too.
Ellis got his arm in the wrong position and got the body in the wrong position. Not malicious but dangerous lower end of the scale.
Isa and Atkins were pretty similar,neither were the worst example, but both were dangerous and more than that, absolutely unnecessary. We lose nothing if those tackles are legislated out of the game.
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| Quote: Judder Man "Front, back or side doesn't really matter if its late and on the knee joint its a "cannonball tackle", the point of contact should determine the length of ban usually the side knee ligaments are season ending sometimes.'"
Under the current rules it's not a cannonball from behind as the knees are being bent in the direction they are meant to. It's only a cannonball if the tackle is entered around the knee and from the front or side.
I believe what you say should be the rules but currently it's not, it's merely your opinion of what a cannonball is.
I assume Isa on LMS is what prompted the OP's question. That was a prime example of what is permitted in the current rules, he entered from behind. At full speed it looked terrible. Personally I hate those tackles and believe any secondary contact below the waist should be banned.
I also believe the disciplinary are far too soft on all forms of dangerous contact. The worst imo being the crusher tackle as that is potentially effecting the spine of a player.
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| Below the knee yes but above the knee theres no danger really.
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| Always thought it was a tackle into the legs and knees against the joints.
Didn't see Ellis or Atkins incidents but Isa's wasn't against the leg joints. He went in behind the knees which was not against the joints.
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| Quote: Father Ted "Always thought it was a tackle into the legs and knees against the joints.
Didn't see Ellis or Atkins incidents but Isa's wasn't against the leg joints. He went in behind the knees which was not against the joints.'"
Correct. People either don't understand the rule, or don't want to. Wire fans still claim Hansen got away with one in the '13 Grand Final when he hit Ratchford in the waist
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| Quote: Grimmy "Correct. People either don't understand the rule, or don't want to. Wire fans still claim Hansen got away with one in the '13 Grand Final when he hit Ratchford in the waist
Not actually true that grimmy, granted it wasn't a classic cannon ball as perfected by Jeff Lima and currently done on a very thin line by Sam Powell on a regular basis. Buy the principal of it by Hansen which was collapsing the leg in an awkward fashion while two tacklers then land on top of the ball carrier who's leg goes in an awkward direction which then puts stress on the knee/ankle ligaments with the combined weight.
Hence why the Rfl changed the definition of that foul in the off season off the back of that incident.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "It was right Ellis went for ten, Isa should have gone for ten, and Atkins should have gone for ten too.
Ellis got his arm in the wrong position and got the body in the wrong position. Not malicious but dangerous lower end of the scale.
Isa and Atkins were pretty similar,neither were the worst example, but both were dangerous and more than that, absolutely unnecessary. We lose nothing if those tackles are legislated out of the game.'"
The Atkins incident wasn't really one, it looked like it a first view, but on the replay Dixon wasn't bent over under the tacklers and it looked like Ryan was actually running in to put his head on him in the mid riff. Granted it was an attempted cheap shot but not an attack yo the legs.
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| Quote: Trainman " ....any secondary contact below the waist should be banned.'"
That's about right.
I think Mal Reilly's idea of only ever allowing a maximum of two in the tackle at any time is going a bit too far. But the law could be that any third or more defenders joining the tackle can only impact the attacking player at waist height or above (and not above the shoulders, obviously).
On a slightly different tack. As soon as the referee has called 'held' any defender flopping into the tackle should be penalised AND INCLUDING those players on the defending side who flop onto their own man who is in the tackle - as they should be deemed to be preventing their own man doing what he is required to do i.e. Roll Away.
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| Quote: Trainman "Under the current rules it's not a cannonball from behind as the knees are being bent in the direction they are meant to. It's only a cannonball if the tackle is entered around the knee and from the front or side.
I believe what you say should be the rules but currently it's not, it's merely your opinion of what a cannonball is.
I assume Isa on LMS is what prompted the OP's question. That was a prime example of what is permitted in the current rules, he entered from behind. At full speed it looked terrible. Personally I hate those tackles and believe any secondary contact below the waist should be banned.
I also believe the disciplinary are far too soft on all forms of dangerous contact. The worst imo being the crusher tackle as that is potentially effecting the spine of a player.'"
I don't think its directly actually written in the super league rules, as cannonball, from what I can remember it comes from the international rules where its referred to as spearing into the tackle (cannonball) the point of contact must be above the knee joint, as the offence from Isa was directly into the knee joint it doesn't matter iff its front back or side its a spearing into the tackle (cannonball). The disciplinary has redeemed it as lacking significant force to do any damage but the intention to do possible damage still exists by the player.
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| Quote: Judder Man "I don't think its directly actually written in the super league rules, as cannonball, from what I can remember it comes from the international rules where its referred to as spearing into the tackle (cannonball) the point of contact must be above the knee joint, as the offence from Isa was directly into the knee joint it doesn't matter iff its front back or side its a spearing into the tackle (cannonball). The disciplinary has redeemed it as lacking significant force to do any damage but the intention to do possible damage still exists by the player.'"
As always it is all down to the interpretation. The disciplinary talk about whether a joint has been taken out of its normal range of movement.
You're wrong about ISA though as first contact was on the upper thighs.
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Quote: Judder Man "I don't think its directly actually written in the super league rules, as cannonball, from what I can remember it comes from the international rules where its referred to as spearing into the tackle (cannonball) the point of contact must be above the knee joint, as the offence from Isa was directly into the knee joint it doesn't matter iff its front back or side its a spearing into the tackle (cannonball). The disciplinary has redeemed it as lacking significant force to do any damage but the intention to do possible damage still exists by the player.'"
You are correct. I never cease to be amazed by the number of people who will confidently assert a rule which doesn't actually exist.
The cannonball tackle is a grey area. There is no clear definition of what is and isn't a cannonball in the laws of the British game (check for yourself: www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rul ... misconduct ). The only definition of a cannonball which exists is in the international rules, which defines it as follows:
"Spearing at the legs : when a player in possession is held in an upright position by two or more defenders, any other defender(s) must make initial contact above the knees/knee joint."
Isa would have been penalised had this rule applied. Instead, while we wait for our law-drafters to catch up in this country, cannonball tackles can only be penalised under the catch-all sub-section (I) : "behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game."
The disciplinary process seems to have decided that Isa's tackle was not in contravention of this rule. It has nothing to do with some commentator-dreamt-up nonsense about behind the knee or in the crease, or any such rot. That's all meaningless tripe. For what it's worth, I think Isa was extremely lucky not to cause serious injury. His transgression was to come into the tackle at speed, when no speed was required (the carrier was stationary, and the ball held in the tackle). He was clearly trying to maximise impact on a stationary man, which is very dangerous when attacking the lower legs. I would have had no hesitation in sending him from the field were I reffing that match, on the grounds that it was at best negligent, and at worst a deliberate attempt to injure.
The decision of the disciplinary process not to charge and ban Isa is bizarre. The squirrelling about exactly what angle the contact was with the leg is equally bizarre, given the way previous decisions have been based not on angles, but on the speed and impact with which the tackler attacks the leg, and the fact that everyone on that committee should have read the clear definition in the international rules, which Isa clearly transgressed. I can find no reason why the disciplinary would have ignored past precedent and international definitions other than to try to find a way of not banning Isa. I was, and remain, genuinely astonished that an obviously reckless challenge could be excused, apparently through the use of a non-existent caveat to a non-existent law.
Not for the first time, I find the RL disciplinary committee to be an entirely inconsistent, inexplicable and potentially corrupt body.
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Quote: Judder Man "I don't think its directly actually written in the super league rules, as cannonball, from what I can remember it comes from the international rules where its referred to as spearing into the tackle (cannonball) the point of contact must be above the knee joint, as the offence from Isa was directly into the knee joint it doesn't matter iff its front back or side its a spearing into the tackle (cannonball). The disciplinary has redeemed it as lacking significant force to do any damage but the intention to do possible damage still exists by the player.'"
You are correct. I never cease to be amazed by the number of people who will confidently assert a rule which doesn't actually exist.
The cannonball tackle is a grey area. There is no clear definition of what is and isn't a cannonball in the laws of the British game (check for yourself: www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rul ... misconduct ). The only definition of a cannonball which exists is in the international rules, which defines it as follows:
"Spearing at the legs : when a player in possession is held in an upright position by two or more defenders, any other defender(s) must make initial contact above the knees/knee joint."
Isa would have been penalised had this rule applied. Instead, while we wait for our law-drafters to catch up in this country, cannonball tackles can only be penalised under the catch-all sub-section (I) : "behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game."
The disciplinary process seems to have decided that Isa's tackle was not in contravention of this rule. It has nothing to do with some commentator-dreamt-up nonsense about behind the knee or in the crease, or any such rot. That's all meaningless tripe. For what it's worth, I think Isa was extremely lucky not to cause serious injury. His transgression was to come into the tackle at speed, when no speed was required (the carrier was stationary, and the ball held in the tackle). He was clearly trying to maximise impact on a stationary man, which is very dangerous when attacking the lower legs. I would have had no hesitation in sending him from the field were I reffing that match, on the grounds that it was at best negligent, and at worst a deliberate attempt to injure.
The decision of the disciplinary process not to charge and ban Isa is bizarre. The squirrelling about exactly what angle the contact was with the leg is equally bizarre, given the way previous decisions have been based not on angles, but on the speed and impact with which the tackler attacks the leg, and the fact that everyone on that committee should have read the clear definition in the international rules, which Isa clearly transgressed. I can find no reason why the disciplinary would have ignored past precedent and international definitions other than to try to find a way of not banning Isa. I was, and remain, genuinely astonished that an obviously reckless challenge could be excused, apparently through the use of a non-existent caveat to a non-existent law.
Not for the first time, I find the RL disciplinary committee to be an entirely inconsistent, inexplicable and potentially corrupt body.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "It was right Ellis went for ten, Isa should have gone for ten, and Atkins should have gone for ten too.
Ellis got his arm in the wrong position and got the body in the wrong position. Not malicious but dangerous lower end of the scale.
Isa and Atkins were pretty similar,neither were the worst example, but both were dangerous and more than that, absolutely unnecessary. We lose nothing if those tackles are legislated out of the game.'"
Agree with that but of the 3 in my opinion the least dangerous was the one who copped the yellow and 1 game ban. No consistency again and the Atkins one not being called correctly effectively cost London a point.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
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| Quote: Fantastic Mr Catpiss "The Atkins incident wasn't really one, it looked like it a first view, but on the replay Dixon wasn't bent over under the tacklers and it looked like Ryan was actually running in to put his head on him in the mid riff. Granted it was an attempted cheap shot but not an attack yo the legs.'"
It probably wasnt a cannonball tackle, but it was an unnecessary cheap shot.
Im all for a tough game, and don't mind a bit of biff. But see no reason why we give any leeway whatsoever to cheapshots like that. Same with hits on kickers or players who have passed the ball. Theres nothing hard or touch about plowing in to a player who is held up by your teammaters, or is undefended having just passed or kicked.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "It probably wasnt a cannonball tackle, but it was an unnecessary cheap shot.
Im all for a tough game, and don't mind a bit of biff. But see no reason why we give any leeway whatsoever to cheapshots like that. Same with hits on kickers or players who have passed the ball. Theres nothing hard or touch about plowing in to a player who is held up by your teammaters, or is undefended having just passed or kicked.'"
Totally agree on all that, just wanted to add some clarification before people who didn't watch the game started repeating 'atkins cannonball tackle' as he's not a liked player and easy for ppl to stir.
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