There's a lot more to defence than tackle percentage decided by opta. Sean O'Loughlin has a similar missed tackle percentage and if anyone calls him a bad defender it's pistols at dawn i'm afraid. What they do is charge up at the ball carrier to stop them in their tracks, this can lead to misses but also oftens stops the other team doing what they intended to do.

McIlorum is great at winning the collision and controlling the ptb, this is very important and isn't show in stats. As people like to point out he hurts the opposition, often legally sometimes illegally but he's more controlled now. He's only been penalised 8 times this season. He also makes great cover tackles, traps people in goal on kick chases, he's basically everywhere in defence.

He's become better in attack as well though. His distribution looks great now.

The main thing is he plays his best in the biggest games, taking on the opposition's biggest best forwards and often winning. His best performances have been in play off games and Grand Finals. Look at the Magic game this year, we were missing O'Loughlin, Farrell, Flower, Clubb, Pettybourne didn't have Joel back yet and McIlorum stood up took it to the Leeds pack dragged them into a fight and won us the game. He was head and shoulders the best player in that game.

Compare that with Clark at Wembley were he got pretty much shown up for me, that's the environment he'll be in for England and I'm not sure he's ready yet.

Having said all that Roby is so good I'm not sure we'll need anyone else. If they're going for an interchange hooker I say start McIlorum bring on Roby but i would be happy to see Roby do the 80. McIlorum should be in the squad ahead of any other hooker though and he will be.

Roby does play 80 minutes for Saints, but he'd still benefit from being spelled, I think. Especially at the end of a long season.
If you did take Roby and McIlorum, I can imagine them both spending 50-60 minutes on the pitch, meaning they over lap.
I think you need to dig up a better plan to beat the Aussies than a bit of niggle from MM, but his naturally aggressive defending means perhaps he'll lead the defensive line speed well. Hustle in defence goes a long way for an underdog team.

This.

Plus Roby and Clark are fairly similar, though Roby is streets ahead and I agree his game has developed way beyond his scoot trademark of a few years ago, he's a different class. Meanwhile MM gives us another option, a different style. Roby has to be the first choice and I'd also be happy if he did 80 most games and we only saw MM in spells, but I'd take him for the options he brings.

If anyone thinks a bit of 'mongrel' is outdated, just look at how Ennis got under Cam Smith's skin a few weeks ago when they spanked Melbourne and how MM got under Leeds' skin at Magic. Ennis is a master at putting players off their game and while MM isn't as much of a WUM, he certainly lets his opposite number know he's there and will be in their faces all game, walloping them around the park.

McIllorum had chances to shine in the 4N last November & did nothing. Remember him coming on against Fiji, giving away silly penalties & being taken off again after playing less than 15 minutes.

There's room to take 3 hookers, we had roby, mcllorum and burrow in the world cup squad, I think Roby Mcllorum and Clark should and will all go.

O'Loughlin misses vastly fewer tackles (percent) than McIlorum so let's put that to bed.

I do, however, accept that some of McIlorum's missed tackles are 'bounce offs' and that they can sometimes be effective.

Nevertheless, I'd take aim at McIlorum's distribution. He doesn't bend his back, looks incredibly stiff and is consequently slow out of DH - running or passing. Whatever his attributes in defence, it's points we lack in Test matches and McIlorum offers almost zero there. I'd rather we have a clever and unpredictable 9 with 3 big hitters alongside him in the middle unit than 4 big hitters with limited attacking edge out of dummy half. In any case, we'll win the middle unit contest with Burgess, Hill, Graham, etc. and *anybody* at 9 - we usually do - and so another hitman is an unnecessary luxury. Creativity is the difference between two evenly matched Test teams.

I also chuckle at Daryl Clark's status as a big game underachiever based on ... er ... one big game. Even there, I think he's being criticised for his team's performance rather than his own. McIlorum had a chance in a big game in the World Cup and was abysmal.

I took the previous posters stats that said 8% for MM and O'loughlin's is 7%, MM actually misses about 8.5% but both are a lot lower than the other players listed.

Also when did McIlorum play a big game in the World Cup? Clark's failed to show in the Cup final, the catalans game and the play off. Like you say that could have as much to do with the team in general.

I'd disagree about needing players to score, we need to be solid in defence. Limit opportunities and take chances when we can. You're not going to beat Australia in a shoot out.

I don't know, what would you rather do? Beat Australia 40-36 or lose 18-10? Obvious statement of the century coming up = to win you need to out score your opponents. And recently against Australia we seem to focus on defence rather than put any decent attacking play together. Even with defending cock ups can still be made e.g Sinfield in the World Cup.

Spot on. And the Wigan fans should try looking up a few stats on all these players and then try coming back with evidence why this statement isn't correct.

As for getting/needing quick PTB's McIlorum probably gets more than anyone thanks to the pack he's playing behind yet still can't dominate offensively, so how come being just as ordinary as anyone else with a poor PTB is an asset?

And apart from his dismal effort against Fiji in the World Cup, which also showed that his thuggery doesn't scare international players, mr "big game" doesn't exactly show up when Wigan lose - yet apparently this is enough to damn Clark.

James Roby and Daryl Clark for me.

This season more than ever, Roby has proven that he is still the best hooker we have got, proven international quality.

I've not and am not a big fan of McIllorum, so it would be Clark as the back-up/speller for me. I really think he could get at a tiring Australian/Kiwi defence late on in games with his ruck speed.

Firstly I hope Roby plays for 80 minutes, or close enough so that we don't need an out and out hooker on the bench at all. Substituting him will always take momentum out of England - as it did in the WC. He should take a leaf out of Cam Smith's book if required and work out how to take rests during the game, not by going off for 15 minutes.

Secondly, I hope Burrow isn't picked as some kind of bench option. He hasn't provided game-breaking runs from there for quite some time, and his distribution has never been good.

Thirdly, I'd like to see a solid defender with smarts behind Roby. The smartest hooker I've seen in SL (admittedly I haven't seen a huge amount) is Lunt.

Dummy running won't achieve much vs Aus, and any hooker who can't tackle shouldn't be playing anyway.

Take a breath and put down that pint of bitter

Just for starters if you have ever watched us play we don't go down the quick play of the ball scoot style rugby, haven't done for years. Now and again it might happen but we don't look for it at every opportunity.

I don't need to look at the stats either, they only tell part of the story. Ive seen us in enough big games to know that when Mcilorum is playing he makes a massive difference and the tougher the game the better he is.

Your judging Mcilorum off a 20 minute spell against Fiji yet having a pop at people saying Clark isn't ready yet off the challenge cup final? Talk about stones, glass houses and all that

Quote: Erik the not red "I'd like to bet that you have and are embarrassed by what you see. He simply isn't a leader in any category (except perhaps disciplinary referrals). Stats aren't everything but you can bet that his fan club would be belting them out if they could find anything favourable about him at all. As I said evidence please. As you prefer to make grandiose unsubstantiated claims instead, I presume he made a "massive difference" against Cas in the Cup game? Or wasn't that tough enough so he was kind enough to let choker Clark have his day in the sun? So you pick the one poop or bust game in the last 2 years that we have lost where the whole team stunk the place out. Very selective there Look at the Challenge cup games last season. Look at the Playoffs last season. Watch the playoffs this season. He is a big part of a multiple trophy winning side and if you watch all the big games Wigan play well in you will see him playing a big role. Proven quality player and if you ask him nicely he might show you his jewels to prove it Read the article below just to see what his coach thinks of him. www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6626497

Quote: Erik the not red "I'd like to bet that you have and are embarrassed by what you see. He simply isn't a leader in any category (except perhaps disciplinary referrals). Stats aren't everything but you can bet that his fan club would be belting them out if they could find anything favourable about him at all. As I said evidence please. As you prefer to make grandiose unsubstantiated claims instead, I presume he made a "massive difference" against Cas in the Cup game? Or wasn't that tough enough so he was kind enough to let choker Clark have his day in the sun? So you pick the one poop or bust game in the last 2 years that we have lost where the whole team stunk the place out. Very selective there Look at the Challenge cup games last season. Look at the Playoffs last season. Watch the playoffs this season. He is a big part of a multiple trophy winning side and if you watch all the big games Wigan play well in you will see him playing a big role. Proven quality player and if you ask him nicely he might show you his jewels to prove it Read the article below just to see what his coach thinks of him. www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6626497

He is an excellent superleague club player but he is not international class I am afraid.
He struggles at international level because he is fixed to a club structure, the top international sides nullify his effect quite easily.
Roby is world class, is no longer a scooter and has quite a broad variety of play patterns, Clarke is still work in progress and should replace Roby in a couple of years.