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Quote: hooligan27 "Why does that clown think Toulouse deserve SL. What have they done ever in the championship. Catalans are dropping faster than a prostitute drops her knickers.

And the comment on Toronto v London is attractive wait till they play each other and will see which game got the biggest attendance that or Dewsbury v Batley I can guarantee will be the local derby

If you all think Toronto will go up this year I would look at here last 2 games and think again no where near what hull kr were last season leigh again look poor. I will not be writing London off this year think they could be the team to make the step up'"


You are right, Leigh do look poor, but your last paragraph is only on current form after only 3 games. It's the business end that matters........I'm just praying we are up there in with a shout TBH. icon_razz.gifRAY: icon_razz.gifRAY:

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Quote: bramleyrhino "Given that Toronto have been getting crowds around 8 times what that Dewsbury - Batley figure, I think you're a bit off the mark.'"


Allegedly ??

I think the attendances for Batley v Dewsbury may involve spectators and not just numbers on a piece of paper.

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I would suspect that London v Toronto in a suburb of Greater London might attract 2,500 up to 3,000

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Quote: Roy Haggerty "Struggling financially, the stadium drama rolls on and on, and the crowds were still bottom 3 in the comp last year, as in the years before. They're doing better on the pitch, but that doesn't matter, bluntly. Nobody cares what happens on the pitch except our existing fans, and we don't have enough of them. If Wakefield's stadium ever actually happened, and they filled it weekly with 10,000 fans, then I would be clamouring for their justified place in the top flight, whether or not they were winning or losing more. But they aren't. Obviously not in such a dire position as Salford, but it's arguable that Widnes are in less trouble because at least they have a stadium.

Because, with the influence of Big Nigel (ex of Halifax), the RFL decided that their top priority was the possibility of Featherstone, Halifax or Leigh gaining promotion for a year in the top flight. The price for P&R, which was clearly only likely to benefit those three clubs, was a reduction in numbers in the top flight to spread the money thicker amongst the remaining clubs, plus a play-off system which I think everyone expected to so heavily favour the fully professional SL sides that actual P&R was seen as only a theoretical possibility, not a real one.

When the decision was taken in 2013 to reduce from 14 to 12, with P&R to follow, I suspect the SL clubs thought that the clubs to be cut would be London, who were in financial collapse at the time, and one of Salford, Widnes, Castleford or Wakefield, based on normal results. They didn't really want London to go, but were willing to pay that price for the extra cash and London seemed a basket case at the time anyway. Everyone was horrified when Bradford, one of the few genuinely big clubs, then collapsed and disappeared along with London, which suddenly made the league look much smaller and more parochial than expected.

We've since had the worst of all worlds. Hull KR and Leigh have demonstrated through their Yo-Yoing that even when it happens, P&R does nothing for the SL competition apart from swap two poorly-supported no-hoper teams in already-saturated markets. However, the near-disappearance of Catalans shook up the bigger clubs, because they can see that if the French follow London and Bradford, SL looks even more parochial and even less attractive to the broadcasters and sponsors. Meanwhile, the relegation of Hull KR and Leigh, who as fully pro sides weren't supposed to fall through the trapdoor, made the lower-half SL clubs terrified, because it could be them, while the possibility of losing a big, rich club like Warrington was just unacceptable to the other clubs. Hence the P&R had to go, for all the reasons which were given, and ignored, for not introducing it in the first place.

The clubs thought they'd been clever in introducing P&R to pacify the top championship clubs and more traditional-minded fans, without the risk of any big clubs falling foul of it because of the play-off system. In many ways, it was supposed to be much more of a closed shop than licensing ever was, because there was now no way for a new club to threaten the place of one of the poor performers other than the supposedly impossible play-off route. What they ended up with is the loss of one of the biggest clubs - Bradford - along with the loss of London, and the too-near-for-comfort potential loss of Warrington and Catalans. Yet while the system seems to allow for the disappearance of some of our few genuine asset clubs, it has become very apparent that the Leigh/Hull KR/Halifax clubs, while unlikely to add much to SL as a competition, are always likely to act as an effective barrier to entry (or re-entry) for new asset clubs clubs with greater commercial/developmental potential like Bradford, Toulouse and Toronto.

The system is a disaster - a genuine risk to the continuity and maybe survival of major clubs in a sport not overflowing with major clubs, but one which ensures that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any new potential to enter the top flight. It has to change.

The defenestration of Nigel Wood was partly the lower-half clubs acting to ensure their own survival, to try and bring the system to an end. But it was also the upper half clubs trying to find a way of recreating a way into SL for clubs beyond the Leigh/Halifax/Fev group in an attempt to improve the marketability and spread of a sport which they know is stagnant and declining. I have heard that they were furious to discover, after Nigel's departure, that the play-offs were enshrined in the TV contract, which explains why no new system has yet been announced, because there'll have to be serious negotiations with Sky first.

We're in uncharted waters, and I would love to have a mole on the inside of the RFL to fill in the gaps in what I've heard/read/gleaned from various places. But on balance, even if for selfish reasons, I think the bigger clubs are trying to take the sport in the right direction. Lenagan, Moran, Pearson, Davy, and McManus are not stupid men. They want a bigger, more attractive competition, and they recognise that all the current structure has achieved is to foster the game's stagnation.'"


You must know something that the accountant we have as a chairman doesn't know then?

I understand the stadium issue which is hopefully closer than ever to being resolved but should one thing hold so much water? Not in my opinion.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: wrencat1873 "Allegedly ??

I think the attendances for Batley v Dewsbury may involve spectators and not just numbers on a piece of paper.'"


Well until there's credible evidence to suggest that Toronto are fudging their numbers, I don't think it's right to start supposing that the club are.

At the moment, the best evidence that emerges whenever that claim is made seems to be a fan on the internet saying "it didn't look that full on TV".

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Quote: little wayne69 "Not sure how true they are, but there are rumours that Cas's new ground is in trouble and has been put back 18 month due to lack of investment.'"


Doesn't look like it to me...
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/vi ... -1-9019924
Quote: little wayne69 "Not sure how true they are, but there are rumours that Cas's new ground is in trouble and has been put back 18 month due to lack of investment.'"


Doesn't look like it to me...
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/vi ... -1-9019924


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[b:1crbsr9w] Toulouse for Championship in 2017, Super League in 2021! Avignon for Championship in 2021, Super League in 2022! [/b:1crbsr9w]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_18302.png



Quote: hooligan27 "Why does that clown think Toulouse deserve SL. What have they done ever in the championship. Catalans are dropping faster than a prostitute drops her knickers.

'"


Terrific Toulouse was riding high in the Championship last year until injury to both its halves, with no reserve cover, sent it spiraling down. This year the club has some talented cover in the halves, and once its top play maker and its top prop gets on the field it will surely be a good bet for the Super 8s.

On top of that fact about Toulouse's talent and worthiness, there are good reasons why neutral fans should want Toulouse in Super League:

(1) it creates a local derby with Catalans which will massively boost crowds for both Toulouse and Catalans
(2) it will attract more young players in the greater Toulouse area, many of whom will be leaving rugby union for rugby league
(3) by having two French Super League clubs it will strengthen the professionalism and talent of the French national team
(4) it will allow Sky to have a French game every weekend on Sky

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einstien said insanity is when a person does the same thing over and over again but expects a different result:



I'm with jean on this one I've said for long enough if we're going to expand a second French club should be a priority over Toronto or other American teams for me it has more chance to succeed as at least RL is played in France at all levels rather than just making a team from nothing in a country that doesn't really play the game

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Hull KR the pride of East Hull.:



Quote: Call Me God "Club Union had nothing the year we started SL. The then 5 Nations was a "crown jewel" and attracted interest, but Leicester v Wasps would attract 5k at best.....the fact that Lecester now attract more than any Rugby Club has little to do with the 6 nations and more to do with how that game is run....from the top down. Same in Cricket.....they faltered and T-20 came to the rescue.....the ECB/RFU run their sports well....the RFL don't run Rugby League.....the SL chairmen do.

So a sport from across the pond with a highlights show on C4 has marketed itself better than we have? We've had live club games on FTA for decades......

We don't exist and wo't properly until we are a game played in colleges.....it took soccer 40+ years....

London v Toronto will be of interest. It may well be attended so long as David Hughes isn't still paying for things in London.....if he is then it wouldn't be marketed.

I agree and I believe that the SL clubs should collectively drop 100k into a marketing pot each........'"


A/
that could be true (I don't know much about RU). The point I was making was now. Yes the clubs have put in alot of work. But when you have an international event every year that's plastered all over the media, that can't but help the club game.

B/
That sport from over the pond. Who's season only last for 3 months (Sept to Dec), Jan is play offs. Has during the season 5 live games on sky (Thurs night, 3 on sun, Mon) everyweek. A highlights show on Sat night after match of the day. And a live game on mainstream radio (talksport), and a 7 hour show before hand on talksport 2 every Sunday. So yes it is completely out marketing us every way.
Mainly because in my opinion we spent years just resting on our laurels. Instead of relentlessly promoting the sport.

C/
You're right. But the question is will we or them be willing to wait for that?

D/
You're probably right. But only as a one off, if it was played 2/3 times a season. People would soon lose intrest.

Him
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Quote: Adam_Harrison9 "You must know something that the accountant we have as a chairman doesn't know then?

I understand the stadium issue which is hopefully closer than ever to being resolved but should one thing hold so much water? Not in my opinion.'"

You can’t seriously take issue with the claim that Wakefield struggle financially. Of course they do.

Even Leeds struggle financially and they’re way ahead of most clubs.

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: hooligan27 "And the comment on Toronto v London is attractive wait till they play each other and will see which game got the biggest attendance that or Dewsbury v Batley I can guarantee will be the local derby'"

How to spectacularly miss the point......but let's look at what you've just posted, regardless of "crowds" not being why the SL chairmen are looking at their options, but rather TV cash and exposure.

Anywhoooo..... Dewsbury v Batley, 2 sides less than 3 miles apart, was a match-up first played 109 years ago and last year attracted a gate of 963 and was not available to watch LIVE on TV or via stream......London v Toronto (209 miles apart....sorry, that's Manchester....3,500 miles apart) met for the first time last season in the Challenge Cup and was attended by 758 fans, whilst being available on TV to watch LIVE in both the UK and in Canada.

So using your flawed logic, those 205 extra fans at Dewsbury are more important than taking the game to new frontiers? And we wonder why the Media treat us like a northern hobby with a few blokes in flat caps with whippets watching d040.gif

I am not Toronto's #1 fan, but I'd take them over Dewsbury or Batley any day of the week if we are going to survive, let alone flourish as a viable option in the sports/media marketplace.

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Quote: hooligan27 "still more than tornoto v London would draw'"

You are incorrect. Toronto get bigger crowds than several Super League clubs.

The sides meet this weekend in a top of the table Championship clash.

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



It has been reported that there are talks about making C1 an amateur competition. .......if so then we have the possibility of the top current 19 + NYC with the rest being cast into the abyss.......What of Bradford, a club with clearly as much potential as many Championship clubs?

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Whilst it may feel unfair to some, the RFL needs to understand that not all clubs are equal. We're not like football, with a huge number of clubs outside the top flight with the potential to bring big crowds and interest into the game in their region. Even the much vaunted RU has effectively rigged P&R to try to make sure the bigger clubs in the top flight don't get relegated and replaced by minnow (IIRC London Welsh had to sue to be let into the top flight after the RU tried to block them getting in).

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