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Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock "I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count" [quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote] Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!" I thanked him and went on my Merry way! RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015! "The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth." Officially one of the 119 Mugs used by the club:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg



Quote: Donnyman "1998 Wigan topped Superleague and averaged 10,800 fans
2019 Wigan were only 3rd, way off Saints but averaged 11,900 fans

Everyone may note your tenure on here has been a self confessed "two decades" I thought you were a newbie
I'm just glad to know it's Wigan's fault again icon_rolleyes.gif (Aimed at the OP not you BTW)
On our site there have been the usual people who want nothing more IMO than IL/KR to fail (This is an Internal Wigan issue BTW - even though they do use some of the game wide problems to beat them with) who criticise everything they do.
And before I start I am far from saying here that everything in the Wigan camp is Rosey

However

But as you say above, the perception that all was well 20/25/30 years ago is a Rose tinted view of the world (Certainly from a Wigan Perspective)
I did a comparison of our first 20 years at the JJB/DW compared with the last 20 seasons at Central Park and unless you really selectively Cherry Pick a couple of seasons our attendances at the new ground Stand up very well
In fact there was even a suggestion that the crowds currently were Biased towards the new stadium based on 1 or 2 "High" gates a season inflating them.
Whilst it is true that 1 or 2 do inflate obviously it was interesting to note that at Central Park the crowds were more inflated by 1 or 2 LARGE crowds each year compared to the last 20 years, and in fact if you removed the 1 or 2 highest per year the gap in attendances was greater in favour of the JJB/DW and showed a more "Consistent" attendance currently

Anyway - I would Hazard a guess that across SL that would be mirrored at a lot of clubs and would argue their last 15/20 years would look favourable compared to the 80's/90's crowds.

I would agree there is an over reliance on TV money, which IMO leads to some clubs not investing in Marketing etc. and providing their own improved income streams etc. and as I said in my earlier post there needs to be some incentive for each of the clubs to "Grow" their Business, pay better wages, improve the quality etc and currently there isn't that much of one.

Let's Challenge the NRL, RU and put a 5/10yr plan in place to turn this around (And I do accept it's probably the most difficult time to start this - It should have been done 10 years ago!) but lets aim to be on a much more level playing field in 5-10yrs with those other competitions and incentivise clubs to bring Money into the game from other sources

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Quote: Jukesays "I'm just glad to know it's Wigan's fault again
Again, as always with your posts, a fair bit to "unpack"

"2 Decades" refers to my thoughts on this persons post. You don't have to be a registered user to 'read' posts, but you carry on chasing alice down the rabbit hole d040.gif You've so far accused me of being 5 previous posters on here and thus far, you're so far away it's hilarious icon_lol.gif

In between 1998 and 2019......wigan had averages that started with 15. In that period, wigan had a scare, but have pretty much made the play offs nearly every year. The real question is when Lenegan took over he seemed hell bent on getting more fans in......now it seems that 11,420 which is there recorded average for 2019 is somehow acceptable a decade after 15,668 was achieved. 4,200 and change missing per game is bloody shocking and you trying to defend it is further proof of your naivety.

Maybe next time your discussing this with your chum, you could ask him what the 46,200 fewer fans in 2019 as opposed to 2008 cost him and the club icon_thumb.gif

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Quote: Jack Burton "Where's the money to increase to increase the cap? If clubs were increasing their revenue each year, then of course the cap should be increased. But it isn't, and apart from a few clubs, most don't have the means to pay more.'"


Do what the football league clubs are allowed to do. Their owners are allowed to put money in, but it has to be in the form of a donation so that its taxable income and hits the P&L, rather than sitting on the balance sheet as a loan to the owner

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Quote: Jack Burton "Where's the money to increase to increase the cap? If clubs were increasing their revenue each year, then of course the cap should be increased. But it isn't, and apart from a few clubs, most don't have the means to pay more.'"


Time for the cap to go then.

Simply treading water going nowhere isn't helping the game at all.

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Quote: Donnyman "What "innovation" are you looking for here?'"


Don't know really, other than maybe scrapping the cap.

I'm not a Chairman and I do applaud the fact that so many of them put so much time, effort and cash into the game but at the moment, it feels a bit like death by a thousand cuts.

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Quote: Ovavoo "Don't know really, other than maybe scrapping the cap.

I'm not a Chairman and I do applaud the fact that so many of them put so much time, effort and cash into the game but at the moment, it feels a bit like death by a thousand cuts.'"


No cap helped Wigan to win just about everything for years.

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Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock "I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count" [quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote] Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!" I thanked him and went on my Merry way! RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015! "The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth." Officially one of the 119 Mugs used by the club:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg



Quote: Donnyman "No cap helped Wigan to win just about everything for years.'"


You know it's far more complicated than that - No Cap didn't "Help" Wigan, it didn't "Stop" them though.
It also dragged British RL of it's backside, competing with AUS/NZ more closely (Possibly as close as it's been in 50years), brought international stars to the game from all over the world, from other sports (Accepted it was easier then, although in essence the money we need to pay now, if the cap had been increased, would still attract some of those players and help retain them), more Media and public conscious exposure etc. etc.
RL was stagnating from the late 60's through the 70's and into the early 80's in a lot of ways, and certainly the results on the field were reflecting that (and I guess crowds also). It took 10 years from the mid 80's to at least partly recover those 20 years.

I'm having the same arguments now that I was having 30 years ago
People more interested in having a good atmosphere and it looking good on TV having 11k in a 12k stadium for a semi final
30 years people moaning for semi finals that we had 25/30/35k in a 40/50k stadiums because it looks bad???
Internationals at Wembley with 45/50/55k on and moaning, yet patting ourselves on the back 30 years later when we get 20k on in a 22k stadium

On the field people/clubs moaning about 1 team winning everything (not the complete argument) but forgetting that in reality all they did was apply the latest/best methods and stole a march on the rest of the clubs who were 10/15 years behind Australia at the time.

The game is stagnating because in too many areas we are artificially manipulating a Level playing field, trying to make everything equal for everyone, and certainly IMO doing it to the detriment of the game as a whole

I'm in favour of a cap in Some ways, but the mis-management from a game perspective over the last 15/20 years or so has led to the point where the game is going to have to take drastic measures to get some kind of parity.
As I said previously on an earlier post - if we increased the cap 10/15% per year now it would take us 15 years to catch up with NRL/RU and that's if they stood still.
I accept that some clubs would struggle with that NOW, but the option of doing nothing is leading to the situation were in now.
We have to Do something Now, as every year we don't it will get harder and harder to do something in future.

Do we want to manipulate a level playing field and accept that inwardly from inside our little bubble that being 50% of what others achieve.
Or do we want to incentivise clubs/performance to be the best it can be?

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Quote: Donnyman "No cap helped Wigan to win just about everything for years.'"


There wasn't a cap in place when Wigan were relegated either.

Wigans renaissance came about on the back of a dedicated board of directors, ably led by Uncle Mo.

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Quote: Jukesays "You know it's far more complicated than that - No Cap didn't "Help" Wigan, it didn't "Stop" them though.
It also dragged British RL of it's backside, competing with AUS/NZ more closely (Possibly as close as it's been in 50years), brought international stars to the game from all over the world, from other sports (Accepted it was easier then, although in essence the money we need to pay now, if the cap had been increased, would still attract some of those players and help retain them), more Media and public conscious exposure etc. etc.
RL was stagnating from the late 60's through the 70's and into the early 80's in a lot of ways, and certainly the results on the field were reflecting that (and I guess crowds also). It took 10 years from the mid 80's to at least partly recover those 20 years.

I'm having the same arguments now that I was having 30 years ago
People more interested in having a good atmosphere and it looking good on TV having 11k in a 12k stadium for a semi final
30 years people moaning for semi finals that we had 25/30/35k in a 40/50k stadiums because it looks bad???
Internationals at Wembley with 45/50/55k on and moaning, yet patting ourselves on the back 30 years later when we get 20k on in a 22k stadium

On the field people/clubs moaning about 1 team winning everything (not the complete argument) but forgetting that in reality all they did was apply the latest/best methods and stole a march on the rest of the clubs who were 10/15 years behind Australia at the time.

The game is stagnating because in too many areas we are artificially manipulating a Level playing field, trying to make everything equal for everyone, and certainly IMO doing it to the detriment of the game as a whole

I'm in favour of a cap in Some ways, but the mis-management from a game perspective over the last 15/20 years or so has led to the point where the game is going to have to take drastic measures to get some kind of parity.
As I said previously on an earlier post - if we increased the cap 10/15% per year now it would take us 15 years to catch up with NRL/RU and that's if they stood still.
I accept that some clubs would struggle with that NOW, but the option of doing nothing is leading to the situation were in now.
We have to Do something Now, as every year we don't it will get harder and harder to do something in future.

Do we want to manipulate a level playing field and accept that inwardly from inside our little bubble that being 50% of what others achieve.
Or do we want to incentivise clubs/performance to be the best it can be?'"


Great post

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Again, Where's the money coming from to increase the cap?

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Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock "I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count" [quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote] Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!" I thanked him and went on my Merry way! RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015! "The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth." Officially one of the 119 Mugs used by the club:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg



Quote: Jack Burton "Again, Where's the money coming from to increase the cap?'"


I think you've just answered the problem of the last 20 years
You want to sit back and wait for it to happen before thinking about how we should do it

Why not tell teams/clubs that it's up to them to either :-
a/ Go out and get it, find it, attract new investors, increase their own crowds, reduce costs if that's the way they want to do it - But either way it's up to you all to go out and earn the money needed to allow you to spend an increasing cap

Or

b/ Do nothing

Doing practically nothing for the last 15+years or so has achieved what?

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