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How are we supposed to promote the sport, or get new sponsorship into the game. When no one knows what format the leagues going to be for 2019. If us as RL fans aren't sure what's happening, what format it's going to take, with the new season just over 6 weeks away. How can we get new long term sponsorship.? How can lower SL clubs progress if they're not sure if they'll be there or not? Weather it's p&r, carry on with the 8'same or licencing. We should now know.'"
]

This is spot on.
There should be a clear plan to progress the sport and then allow those that are able, to get on and take us to "the promised land".
Another French club in SL would be ok and one would expect this to help the ailing French National side.
However, the inclusion of any North American clubs is a pure leap of faith.
The logistics are far from straight forward and "we" see to be hoping it will bring some benefits rather than there being ant certainty.
Yes, it would boost RL in N America but, it has the potential to massively de-stabilise our domestic game, which is not exactly setting the world alight.
Quite simply, if we cant secure sufficient extra funding from Sky (or any other broadcaster), I dont believe that we should be continuing with the N American experiment.
IF, on the other hand, we are sat with the promise of greater sponsorship and a Us/Canadian TV deal, then, yes, lets go for it and realistically, the only way that it can work is for the "expansion clubs" to be protected from relegation, which probably means the return of franchising/licensing.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: Budgiezilla "Featherstone could, you are WRONG....expansion lover'"


I'd be interested to see your working out on that one. How would Featherstone develop the revenue, the commercial income, the ticket revenue and the talent required to become a sustainable, competitive and above all, growing, Super League club?

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: luke ShipleyRed "How are we supposed to promote the sport, or get new sponsorship into the game. When no one knows what format the leagues going to be for 2019. If us as RL fans aren't sure what's happening, what format it's going to take, with the new season just over 6 weeks away. How can we get new long term sponsorship.? How can lower SL clubs progress if they're not sure if they'll be there or not? Weather it's p&r, carry on with the 8'same or licencing. We should now know.'"


I also agree on this. We're six weeks away from the start of the season and, as of yet (unless the future is known privately), nobody knows what the model is in the immediate term, never mind the medium and long term.

My worry is that the RFL is simply trying, once again, to appease all parties - who are all pulling in different directions based on the needs of their clubs, the size of their markets and the state of their on and off-field situations. It's right that they want to protect their interests, but this is where leadership from the RFL.

Ultimately, what is needed is for the RFL to say "this is the model we are persisting with, this is the minimum standard you have to meet today, and these are the minimum standards you need to reach in a year, three years, five years, and ten years." You can address a failure to meet those standards in a number of ways - you can have an absolute criteria (meet the standard or you're out if somebody else does), or make aspects of central funding performance-related, for example.

It will upset some people, but the current system isn't making anyone happy.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "How are we supposed to promote the sport, or get new sponsorship into the game. When no one knows what format the leagues going to be for 2019. If us as RL fans aren't sure what's happening, what format it's going to take, with the new season just over 6 weeks away. How can we get new long term sponsorship.? How can lower SL clubs progress if they're not sure if they'll be there or not? Weather it's p&r, carry on with the 8'same or licencing. We should now know.'"


This is spot on.
There should be a clear plan to progress the sport and then allow those that are able, to get on and take us to "the promised land".
Another French club in SL would be ok and one would expect this to help the ailing French National side.
However, the inclusion of any North American clubs is a pure leap of faith.
The logistics are far from straight forward and "we" see to be hoping it will bring some benefits rather than there being ant certainty.
Yes, it would boost RL in N America but, it has the potential to massively de-stabilise our domestic game, which is not exactly setting the world alight.
Quite simply, if we cant secure sufficient extra funding from Sky (or any other broadcaster), I dont believe that we should be continuing with the N American experiment.
IF, on the other hand, we are sat with the promise of greater sponsorship and a Us/Canadian TV deal, then, yes, lets go for it and realistically, the only way that it can work is for the "expansion clubs" to be protected from relegation, which probably means the return of franchising/licensing.'"
]

The thing about America is that the market is already saturated with there sports. If you think NRL, College football, Baseball, MLS, Womens Football, ice hockey,basketball probably the college versions of these sports. Are all on the mainstream media outlets.

For us, an alien sport to get decent exposure over there on the back of one professional club is optimistic.
Yes there is a market there. But for us to get a foothold over there will take time. How much time and wether we give them that time is the question.

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There is another factor to be taken into account when we're talking about expansion in North America: rugby union. I see there are plans for a 9 team Major League Rugby competition (note the just "Rugby"icon_wink.gif in 2018. Mike Ford has signed to take charge of Dallas Griffins.
Once again, we will have to fight for space and recognition. I just hope the American rugby league promoters have more about them than Red Hall or the ventures are doomed.

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Quote: bramleyrhino "I'd be interested to see your working out on that one. How would Featherstone develop the revenue, the commercial income, the ticket revenue and the talent required to become a sustainable, competitive and above all, growing, Super League club?'"


Good article this is, expansion lover.

PROMOTING expansion or supporting the existing grassroots?


[iIt seems that this is the one question that constantly sends the game up a cul-de-sac and never really gets resolved to anyone’s satisfaction.

The argument raged again this week when it was announced that Toronto would forfeit their home game against Toulouse and play it as a curtain raiser at Magic.

You would have thought this game should be seen a positive – the punters get to see an extra game involving the team that seems on a headlong mission to Super League.

It will also, in a quirky way, bring in more publicity than sadly one more domestic fixture would not do.

However, that is not how it has played out across towns across the heartlands.

And just like when London Broncos and Paris St Germain leap-frogged Keighley to get into the inaugural Super League, or when Catalans’ elevation to the top flight and subsequent protection from relegation, there is a cry of preferential treatment.

The Magic selection is an interesting one - not least because Bradford Bulls had already been allowed to peep through the cracks of St James Park that weekend with their Championship 1 fixture at Newcastle.

If they wanted to sell more tickets and maybe boost rugby league in the north east (and I assume that was one of the early points of Magic) then putting that clash on would have killed two birds with one stone.

If handled well the Toronto experiment has the potential to bring something different to our game that is crying out for innovation.

But we still need a strategy to monetise their presence (and Catalans’ for that matter) rather than it being just another novelty outpost.

Not only that, those clubs need to grow the game and develop talent on their own patches not simply trawl the world — and the northern heartlands in particular — for off the peg talent.

Rugby league cannot afford to have too many teams — and I don’t mean just outpost organisations – creaming off talent without doing anything to top up the playing well.

If the game eventually withers in traditional heartlands — because their pro teams have been sidelined — then where are those players going to come from?

You can see why fans of say Halifax, Leigh, Featherstone and Batley can be irked by Toronto.

But the potential problem for the game is more long-term than simply a few noses being put out of joint.[/i

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: Budgiezilla "Good article this is, expansion lover.

PROMOTING expansion or supporting the existing grassroots?


[iIt seems that this is the one question that constantly sends the game up a cul-de-sac and never really gets resolved to anyone’s satisfaction.

The argument raged again this week when it was announced that Toronto would forfeit their home game against Toulouse and play it as a curtain raiser at Magic.

You would have thought this game should be seen a positive – the punters get to see an extra game involving the team that seems on a headlong mission to Super League.

It will also, in a quirky way, bring in more publicity than sadly one more domestic fixture would not do.

However, that is not how it has played out across towns across the heartlands.

And just like when London Broncos and Paris St Germain leap-frogged Keighley to get into the inaugural Super League, or when Catalans’ elevation to the top flight and subsequent protection from relegation, there is a cry of preferential treatment.

The Magic selection is an interesting one - not least because Bradford Bulls had already been allowed to peep through the cracks of St James Park that weekend with their Championship 1 fixture at Newcastle.

If they wanted to sell more tickets and maybe boost rugby league in the north east (and I assume that was one of the early points of Magic) then putting that clash on would have killed two birds with one stone.

If handled well the Toronto experiment has the potential to bring something different to our game that is crying out for innovation.

But we still need a strategy to monetise their presence (and Catalans’ for that matter) rather than it being just another novelty outpost.

Not only that, those clubs need to grow the game and develop talent on their own patches not simply trawl the world — and the northern heartlands in particular — for off the peg talent.

Rugby league cannot afford to have too many teams — and I don’t mean just outpost organisations – creaming off talent without doing anything to top up the playing well.

If the game eventually withers in traditional heartlands — because their pro teams have been sidelined — then where are those players going to come from?

You can see why fans of say Halifax, Leigh, Featherstone and Batley can be irked by Toronto.

But the potential problem for the game is more long-term than simply a few noses being put out of joint.[/i'"


Firstly, I don't understand why you think "expansion lover" is some sort of insult. It really isn't.

Secondly. It's not a good article. It's a rant. For starters, it calls out expansion clubs for their contribution to the talent pool, yet there have never been more professional French players than there currently are.

If you're trying to convince me that Featherstone could sustain a competitive and growing SL club, you're failing miserably.

D-: Must try harder.

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Try telling that to a Keighley Cougars supporter.....expansion lover/football fan

The Cougarmania craze swept through the town in the mid-90s and crowd attendances increased to over 5,000. The head coach steered the club to promotion into the top flight but due to another re-structure within the leagues the Cougars were denied promotion (despite, some would argue, being an influential force in the creation of the Super League).

c020.gif c020.gif

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Quote: Budgiezilla "Try telling that to a Keighley Cougars supporter.....expansion lover/football fan

The Cougarmania craze swept through the town in the mid-90s and crowd attendances increased to over 5,000. The head coach steered the club to promotion into the top flight but due to another re-structure within the leagues the Cougars were denied promotion (despite, some would argue, being an influential force in the creation of the Super League).


Cant argue with the "wrongdoing" at the time regarding Keighley, they had earned their shot at the "big time".
However, at present, that is not the key issue.
The "game" has to decide where it wants to be in 5,10,20 years time and how to get there.

IF we close the doors to "expansion" and bin off Catalan, Toulouse and Toronto and tell them to go and do their own thing, would that be a positive for RL is either the UK, France or North America or, for the game as a whole ?

It's all about investment into the sport.

IF Toronto was to become a major force in SL and be the catalyst to the sport putting down proper roots in North America, having one less European club in SL would be a very small price to pay and if done properly, with some serious additional revenue coming into the game then, where is the problem.

Supporters of lower end SL and top Championship clubs will feel aggrieved that their club is being wronged but, a vibrant, prosperous sport has to be preferable to having 20 or so heartland clubs struggling to make ends meet and following a sport with less profile than womens netball.

We are so far behind Football, Rugby Union and cricket (and still losing ground) that something does have to be done or, we have to accept that we are a small time sport only enjoyed by middle aged blokes from former pit towns and eventually, we mat have to revert to amateur or semi pro status.
This might not be the end of the world for some but, personally, I always thought that RL was far, far, better than that.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: wrencat1873 "Cant argue with the "wrongdoing" at the time regarding Keighley, they had earned their shot at the "big time".
However, at present, that is not the key issue.
The "game" has to decide where it wants to be in 5,10,20 years time and how to get there.

IF we close the doors to "expansion" and bin off Catalan, Toulouse and Toronto and tell them to go and do their own thing, would that be a positive for RL is either the UK, France or North America or, for the game as a whole ?

It's all about investment into the sport.

IF Toronto was to become a major force in SL and be the catalyst to the sport putting down proper roots in North America, having one less European club in SL would be a very small price to pay and if done properly, with some serious additional revenue coming into the game then, where is the problem.

Supporters of lower end SL and top Championship clubs will feel aggrieved that their club is being wronged but, a vibrant, prosperous sport has to be preferable to having 20 or so heartland clubs struggling to make ends meet and following a sport with less profile than womens netball.

We are so far behind Football, Rugby Union and cricket (and still losing ground) that something does have to be done or, we have to accept that we are a small time sport only enjoyed by middle aged blokes from former pit towns and eventually, we mat have to revert to amateur or semi pro status.
This might not be the end of the world for some but, personally, I always thought that RL was far, far, better than that.'"


I agree with this. I really don't see why Budgiezilla has to throw around "expansion / football lover" (where the latter came from is only his guess) as its some sort of put-down.

I'm a fan of the sport first and foremost. I have my personal views on the state of the sport and I have my personal views on what I think needs to be done to address those issues. I've worked in marketing for a long time, and I've also worked with professional sports clubs, so I come from at least some position of experience.

I know my views don't always meet universal agreement, which is sort of what makes internet forums what they are, but I'm happy to put my reasons out there. If I felt that this sport could prosper by focusing its efforts in the heartlands, then I'll be happy, but my view is that the realities of modern sport don't allow that. Modern professional sport relies too heavily on television and commercial revenue, and we simply don't provide the audience that businesses want to (or at least, want to pay to) reach - that harms commercial income coming directly into the sport, and it harms our value to TV broadcasters. Yes, Keighley got shafted, but that was more than two decades ago. The realities of professional sport have moved on at a pace far greater than we have.

What I want is to see the best players possible, in the best facilities possible, and where those players are earning a fair income from their efforts. At the moment, we don't offer that. It's why we aren't attracting and retaining top talent, it's why clubs still aren't able to invest in facilities and why we have a salary cap that is around £1m less in real terms than it was in 1999.

The best way to address that in my view, given that the heartlands clubs clearly can't market themselves appropriately, is to tap into new audiences and new markets. Whilst America does represent a leap of faith, it is currently one of few viable options that we have.

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"I agree with this. I really don't see why Budgiezilla has to throw around "expansion / football lover" (where the latter came from is only his guess) as its some sort of put-down."

Sorry, I'll stop it now.....

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: Budgiezilla ""I agree with this. I really don't see why Budgiezilla has to throw around "expansion / football lover" (where the latter came from is only his guess) as its some sort of put-down."

Sorry, I'll stop it now.....'"

Well done Keighley....attracting 5 gates of over 5k for games against Bradford (9 miles) and Halifax(12 miles).....outstanding work.......but in terms of expansionism, as much use as a chocolate tea-pot d040.gif

What type of expansionism do we want......?
a/ Bigger TV deals and sponsors with very little substance and youth development and average crowds of 5k
b/ Youth development and more local interaction but with crowds in the 3/4k region?
c/ Billionaires throwing cash at the game but with no plan other than "if they watch it once they'll be hooked"?

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Looks like Toronto might have another "home" game here in blighty in 2018:-

https://www.halifaxrlfc.co.uk/article/5 ... fpack-away
Looks like Toronto might have another "home" game here in blighty in 2018:-

https://www.halifaxrlfc.co.uk/article/5 ... fpack-away


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Quote: Tigerade "Looks like Toronto might have another "home" game here in blighty in 2018:-


icon_lol.gif

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By the time Toronto play their first match in Canada in 2018 on May 5th half of their supporters will have lost interest!

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15:00
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
St.Helens
v
Salford
 Sun 16th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
 Thu 20th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Wakefield
v
Hull KR
 Fri 21st Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Warrington
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull FC
v
Wigan
 Sat 22nd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
15:00
Salford
v
Leeds
20:00
Castleford
v
St.Helens
 Sun 23rd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
14:30
Leigh
v
Huddersfield
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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