Its funny to watch you listing things you think smaller clubs can never achieve as if thats somehow a defence of them.

Perhaps thats the main difference, i criticise these clubs because i believe in them and their potential to achieve and do better, you defend them because you don't...

To put this another way, as you're clearly being deliberately daft, are you suggesting Wakefield, Widnes and Leigh have maxed out their potential? Is that it then, are those clubs the equivalent of Fleetwood Town and they have no hope of improving attendances, increasing revenue streams, opening up new markets or creating key corporate partnerships? interesting.

To a large degree yes , in a few years Toronto might be in a similar position , you are aware of the financial situation at many NRL clubs ? Surely they should be able to learn from Toronto

You'll notice I've managed 4 replies now without insulting you , I'm happy to continue the discussion tommorrow , but I'd appreciate a similar respect

Nitey nite

I am in the (probably unique) position of being a Leigh fan and living in Toronto (well, just west of), and the Wolfpack are my second team. I was there at the Oxford game and thrilled to be there on what will hopefully prove to be an historic occasion and not just a flash in the pan.

I am happy to go into more detail as to what I think they have done well and where they still have room to improve:
1) Branding - excellent logo and associated trimmings, which taps into the Canadian psyche well
2) Strategic relationships - deals with Air Transat, Fosters, Gilbert, Kappa and more are all top-level, and I am sure there will be more. Plus TV and online deals negotatiated
3) Social media presence - very slick website and strong social media, regular updates and good content
4) Merchandise - excellent quality and wide selection (see Kappa above) for men, women and kids.
5) Publicity - in a very large city with 5 major sports teams to compete with (ice hockey, baseball, basketball, football and Canadian football), they have managed to get some good airtime, and match reports in all major newspapers and websites.

Where they need to improve is the match-day experience. It's endearingly grass roots at the moment and it actually feels quite in tune with Championship rugby league level to be honest. No match programme or even handouts for team sheets. There was little in the way of pre-match entertainment, although the She-Wolfpack were good and they had some kids running around with a ball at half-time. And there's no screen for visuals. The speakers were also pretty crap (why is this the case in so many RL grounds!) Part of the issue is the stadium of course, which is aging (capacity just under 10,000 all seater but bench style, no cover) and there are limited options/space for food (although the beer tents are great!). Little in the way of education for the masses and not that much connection yet to the wider sport or indeed the league they are playing in. If you went to a Blue Jays baseball game, you would see the gap they have to make up. It's an unbelievably slick and comprehensive experience..

But I am confident that they will get there sooner rather than later - they have to walk before they can run. And they have come a very long way in a short space of time. in fairness, it's much easier to get the back-office and online stuff going, it's much more difficult when it comes to delivering the actual product.

As far as the actual match was concerned, the cynical part of me wonders if some of the fights were slightly engineered to create a bit of an atmosphere and appeal to the Canadian love for an old-style ice hockey brawl! It certainly seemed to work if that was the intention. But you can't do that every week or you will have no team left. What I didn't like was players who had been sent off, high fiving the crowd half the way around the perimeter of the stadium on their way to the tunnel...

Surely they will. Despite our many problems, I genuinely believe we have the best sport in the world. From personal experience, pretty much everyone I have ever persuaded to come to a game has come back for more.

I agree There is a stigma about Rugby League from the olden days of overweight drinkers and smokers just running around a pitch. When they actually see the athletes that play the game, the speed of it, the skill involved and the fact that fans can mingle with no trouble, they realise what a unique sport it is.

Hopefully the locals will see the games at face value, unlike over here where we have to suffer the snobbishness and sneer from the Union brigade and the 'peanut hugging' comments from the football lot. It will be interesting to see how their home crowds compare to the initial one.

Have 5k season tickets been sold as we've been informed? If they have the crowds should hold up, maybe increase with seats sold on the day.

If they chucked thousands of freebies out then maybe not?

Let's hope it's the former, I really want them to do well. (Shouldn't we all....for the greater good)?

It is now looking like Toronto will not only get promoted at the end of this year, but they will probably make it into Super League at first try (i.e. for 2019 season). Unfortunately this will probably be at the expense of Toulouse, which does not have the player depth, financial resources or marketing that Toronto has. I say unfortunately because it would have been wonderful for Toronto to enter Super League one year after Toulouse, so as to make people stand up and look at the new Super League roster, indicating the newfound cosmopolitanism and internationalism of northern hemisphere rugby league.

Hard to tell really. Of course, despite the announcer hyping the game up repeatedly on the day as the first rugby league game in Canada, it was actually the first "professional" game (albeit involving one semi-pro side). There have been many international games, which attracted crowds of anything up to 7,000 - so I would imagine that many of the crowd had been to a game before. There were certainly lots of oohs and ah's for relatively big hits that regular fans would have got used to. And most people have little idea of the rules and the only person shouting abuse at the ref was me!

I think the level of crowd achieved can be maintained through the rest of the season, partly because of the novelty factor, and hopefully there will be a mix of new and returning fans each game. They are going to hit a ceiling because of the stadium they play in, and it will be interesting to see if they do have the capability (as indicated) to upgrade the facilities there - not sure who owns the ground..next year will be more competitive, closer games and even a couple of defeats in all likelihood - that will make the whole experience more exciting and close to a regular game. It's a bit odd though not having any away fans to "interact with".

I did bump into one Warrington fan who had flown across specifically to be at the first game (he had done the same thing in the 80's in the US apparently) - now that's dedication!

You are right of course that each club faces a different set of circumstances, challenges and opportunities - but I think the key here is the innovation which the management has employed - they are business savvy, creative and thinking intelligently. Take the Air Transat deal for example - people were bemoaning the cost of transporting players etc. and it was dealt with very cleverly. They are also prepared to think differently, who else would have gone with Kappa? Being a new sport can be seen as an advantage, it could also be a disadvantage. You try selling ice hockey in Leigh! It's difficult for Leigh fans especially (given the history), and perhaps many existing rugby league fans in general, to consider the possibility that this might actually be a brilliant thing for the sport and that the sport can actually learn a heck of a lot from this process - not necessarily the specifics, but the general approach. I cannot think of any other sporting fans in the world who would be viewing all these developments with such skepticism, pessimism and tribalism.

You missed envy & jealousy from your list.

Not a bad thing really given the plethora of whinging idiots involved?