Loose use of the term "facts", I should have pointed out in my last reply that he had in fact missed 31 tackles not 36. Good summation of his skills too, an attack minded player is good in attack and not quite as good in defence, ground breaking stuff!

You know deep down that he is a great player, but his connection with Wigan means he'll never get the credit he deserves off most fans.

Oh and I've apologised to Pooley, I shouldn't have had a pop at him.

I've been watching the Aussie rugby league since about 88 when Barkers released the weekly rounds on Video to rent.

I've lived here in Aus over 4 years.

The view of Tomkins in Aus is that he is $hit and massively overrated. One of the biggest flops to come over. I'm not saying that, I'm saying he has been very average. It's moments like I highlighted in my other post (that you try to deflect twisting my observation) that stand out for people. Tomkins gaffs reel in the NRL is pretty long and distinguished. He has done some good things but I can tell you for a fact the Aussies think he is simply $hit!

I don't remember that at all.

I don't watch much NRL so cannot comment on Tomkins performances over there but to pay £700k then agree to sell for £200k after 25ish? games is definitely a bad business deal for NZ.

Because it did not happen.

I've never been a member of the Sam Tomkins is God brigade. He looked good in a good Wigan team, but by the end of his time there the other SL coaches had by and large worked him out and he wasn't nearly as effective. This carried on in the NRL, where they'd watched the videos (or should that be DVDs?) and saw his deficiencies before he arrived - I've never been quite sure why the Warriors went for him in the first place. I can't help thinking that the money Wigan are shelling out for him would have been better spent on two or three younger local players with better long term prospects.

Aussies think he's ? That's a great anecdote but is that coming from anyone who can actually have an intelligent conversation about the game? Or just your typical lad down the pub? Either way it's blatantly obvious he isn't or average.

Every argument I've seen about him go, "he can't defend!" The stats show he's no worse in that department than most other top fullbacks, "okay but he's in attack!" Again stats show he's one of the better fullbacks in that department, "yeah well, ben barba ran past him once!" Ok that's convinced me, he is rubbish!

Do you see my point? It's just sweeping generalisations time and time again.

Well it did, just it was in the World Cup 2 years ago not last year, my mistake.

Another one with a short memory jumps on the bandwagon.

"He's been found out by the end of his time there"

He only won Man of Steel the year before he left then was a key player once more in our double winning team in his final year, but okay then.

The thing about Sam is that he polarises opinions. But I had to laugh when it was suggested that Wire had a chance to sign him, they were practically wetting themselves with excitement on their boards.

The truth is that EVERY Super League club would want him. Things haven't worked out particularly well in NZ, but he hasn't been a disaster and I also believe due to the presence of Shaun Johnson, they haven't got the best out of him - which our NZW supporter above, agreed with.

Leeds wouldn't. Hardaker is a better fullback, hey may not be a better pivot, but is better at every other part of fullback play.

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on two counts. Firstly Hardaker is a good runner, but his runs don't turn into chances, he makes little and he scores few. And secondly Leeds would kill to have Tomkins partner Sutcliffe at half back - so as they say in Yorkshire - "Don't talk soft!"

I haven't bitten on this thread because there is the standard bitter nonsense flying about, but it's good to see some sense being spoken.

When Michael Maguire moved Sam to FB he didn't just shove him there and say "you're a fullback now". He changed the way the team played, ensuring that our attacking structures meant ST got the ball in his hands as often as possible in as much time and space as possible. The result was devastating, and contrary to what some think, he was never "found out" - Bilko posted a few weeks ago, between 2010-13, ST either scored or assisted 214 tries in 125 appearances - that's phenomenal. Sam never really played with a running half at Wigan - he was the main running threat.

Compare this to his time at NZW, he doesn't touch the ball anywhere near as often as he used to at Wigan. He's used more as a wide playmaker and plays much more flat than he used to. So his passing skills are still utilised but his running game is almost none existent as Johnson dominates this role. For me, if the Warriors were bringing ST in as the "marquee" big-money signing, then they should play in a style that gets the most out of him. Bottom line he joined the wrong NRL club IMO. Has he been worth the big money? Probably not, but he definitely hasn't been a complete flop either. I just hope he can stay injury free for the rest of 2015 and get up to some decent form.

We are talking fullbacks. Hardaker under the high ball, kick return and try saving/stopping defence is better than Tomkins. Hardaker saves more than he scores. Hardaker is a natural try score throughout his career. That's not his job at Leeds but when needed is a great finisher. Tomkins hasn't played in the halves for so long it's not even a debate.