It's nothing at all like that. Cas and Wakey are not the only Super League clubs in England, between them they have provided one player for the English national side since 2008. Of the Welsh side that beat France, 12 of the 17 are either current or former Crusaders players, or South Wales Scorpions players. Would they be competing with France had Crusaders not existed? No, the team would still be filled with Englishmen and be at the same level as Ireland and Scotland. Instead, they have won the European Cup in consecutive years with an almost entirely home-grown squad. You said that Crusaders had done nothing for the game. That is not only short sighted in the extreme, it's also complete and utter boll0cks.

If you are going to include former players then Wakie and Cas can add a fair few more to that one you are quoting.

Since you ignored this one , I'll give you another chance




As you have a better knowledge of the team than me away you go , tell us which players that the Crusaders have ' developed ' into International players , that weren't beforehand ?

Of that team, probably Kear, Roets, Thomas, White and Dudson would not have played. The point is not just the individual players though. Others like Flower would not have been at anything like the standard they are. It's a chance for Welsh players to compete at a higher level, just as Catalans allow French players that opportunity. Crusaders being in Super League also led to the formation of Scorpions which is another chance for Welshmen to play pro RL.

Argue all you like about Crusaders not 'deserving' to be in Super League or 'deserving' a heavier points deduction or whatever you want, but there's no way you can question their positive impact on the game in Wales.

Yes they have had a positive impact on the Welsh game , but nowhere near the impact you suggest , and quite possibly just the same as if they had stayed in the Championship

Of those players you have highlighted quite possibly only Thomas has become available because of the Crusaders elevation to SL , just out of interest , how many games have the rest played last season between them

And you claimed 12 out of 17 , but only name 5 , you were no doubt including the likes of Lennon/James and others in that 12 , were you including Anthony Blackwood , by chance ?

If you try to exagerate things you lose credibilty , dont do it

The catalyst for any current Welsh success was John Dixon and the endeavours of those based in Bridgend.
John Dixon was deprived of any finance when in Super League yet he had displayed superb professionalism when he was surrounded by an unreliable owner and irate followers of the game based in the heartlands,and then his players being subjects of 'easy targeting' by the UK Border Agency.There was massive development within a small timeframe.
The conduct of those running the club in Wrexham,and the RFL,has done nothing other than bring the game into disrepute and turn many against the expansion in Wales.
Because the Welsh have done well against other nations is to be applauded,but to put out the welcome mat just because a team coached by Bobbie Goulding has been defeated defies any logic as sides from Whitehaven,Keighley and Blackpool could probably replicate the victory.
rlThe Welsh side on the day was hardly brimming with Super League playersrl
The points deduction,such as it is,serves only as a token gesture.

No, because Blackwood didn't play. The fact is that 12 are former or current Crusaders players. Lennon and James qualified previously, but the rest didn't. I don't care if you don't like Crusaders, and a positive impact on the game is probably seen as a negative by someone like you, but surely you can understand that kids playing at a higher level = improved standards of play, and a better club in a higher league with more money = better youth development. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Pretty sure the majority of posters hated Crusaders long before they moved to Wrexham. Please explain what the Wrexham administration and the RFL have done that has 'brought the game into disrepute'.

Why do you CONSISTANTLY wish to prove that you actually know NOTHING about the game?

I would have thought you would have learned by now!!!

Well if we're splitting hairs, Cas had two home-grown players capped for England in 2010...

nobody is doubting their impact in Wales,and i'm not anti-welsh ! - Nobby & Iestyn did a great job last season - I personally believe Widnes were really hard done by especially when the events of 2009/10 seasons unfolded - .But you can't judge a team by their international counterparts - I used Wakey & Cas as examples but any other english SL team are included in the list.The Crusaders debarcle was disaster waiting to happen - speaking as a neutral ,SOC had everything in place to make a viable,credible & realistic SL bid but the old farts at the RFL were intent on expanding the game to a vunerable candidate in South Wales.The whole episode has been a farce,let's just hope lessons have been learned .Saying that,good luck to Iestyn & the lads for next season.

Widnes had been out of administration for a matter of weeks when the license applications were submitted. It's alright to look in hindsight but they were in a far, far worse situation than Crusaders are in now, IIRC they actually went into liquidation, all their players were made free agents etc only to be re-signed later when O'Connor bought the club. I agree that international comparisons are by no means an accurate way of judging a club's success, but you stated that Crusaders had done nothing for the game. My opinion is that the RFL should have been more thorough in their investigation of the South Wales club and given them more support, rather than leaving the club in the hands of people like Mike Turner who had no idea how to manage it properly. The reason it failed in the South is through shambolic administration and it's the fault of the people who were running the club at the time, not the RFL for including them. If the club had been administrated properly then there was every chance of it being a success. I don't think there have been any sort of damages to 'credibility' though, other than through the eyes of RL's own paranoid fans. Nobody is laughing at the game, but a lot more people are interested in it now.

People talk about Widnes as if they would be one of the biggest clubs in the game and would take Super League to another level, and there's no evidence to suggest that would be the case at all. They would probably won about the same number of games as Crusaders have in the two years and had average crowds of maybe 1-2000 more than Wrexham had last year, although those fans would almost all be existing RL fans rather than new converts. I would be surprised if they had done significantly better than Crusaders, certainly in the second year. Do they deserve a place? Probably yes, although I still am not convinced that they would be as big a club as Super League should be aspiring to be made up of, although they do have potential for growth. Were they hard done by? I don't feel that they were, and they are almost definitely going to be included this time anyway so it doesn't really make too much difference now. For what it's worth though, despite all their faults, mistakes and the absoulte mass of hatred directed towards them, I think having Crusaders in Super League has been of much more benefit to the game than taking the (in hindsight) safe option of including Widnes would have been. Can anyone say what great benefit Widnes would have provided that the league is currently lacking? That's not to say they don't deserve a place, just when people argue that they would have done so much more for the game, I don't see how that is true. If anything, advocates of Widnes should be arguing for their inclusion ahead of Salford. I think they would probably have performed better than Salford have in the last two years, and would have arguably contributed 'more to the game' than Salford have. To say that they would have contributed more than Crusaders is rubbish.

I disagree, there was a lot of support for a Welsh team from fans, and still is. I think everyone was concerned about the set up, the stadium, not being in a major city etc but majority of fans can see that a well run succesful Welsh SL club will pay off great dividends in the long run. Unfortunately most could see another Quins in the making and were proved right to some degree.