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| Quote: Donnyman "I have no real Agenda apart from wishing to see the North American dream be finished with, on the basis that they never delivered what they promised. They now pretend that they bring massive worldwide publicity to the game here and a series of equally mega rich NA clubs are still in the pipeline to complete that dream. I think you share my sentiments here......
As for Les Catalans they were accepted into Superleague with the primary aim of reviving international test match RL in Europe. In 2005 Aussie. Kiwis and Great Britain played out a six match "Tri-Nations" during which the French were given Test match status fixtures against Australia and New Zealand. The games were in Perpignan and Toulouse. The following year Les Catalans came into Superleague.
So if I am [i"making it up that they came in to bolster the French International team"[/i... then I had better add that France were duly invited to play England at Headingley in 2007 to re-establish the International game between Great Britain and France. The French were poor on the day and went down 42-14 before nearly 13,000 spectators of which I was one.
Things never got better for the French, any complaints made to Les Catalans as regards their habit of not concentrating on French players or withdrawing them for selection for France was met with a reply that they had to compete in Superleague and could not possibly play an all French side otherwise they would just get relegated. The fact is the plan as formulated by Richard Lewis to have one French SL club so France could develop international players failed.
But there was no going back or kicking them out as the fans were having a great time on their "away days" to Perpignan, and Catalans were building a good club. Over the seasons we see less and less quality French players and at 34 Remi Casty will be the next to go. As the French game continues it's decline eventually it could be there are no French players in a team Catalans turn out as the balance between French and non french players slides towards that.
And the point is this, there are now enough imports for Catalans to put 13 players on the pitch and two on the subs bench if their intended signings come off who just aren't French.
[iAnd so when do a resurgent Bradford, Leigh, Newcastle or Widnes start to point the finger and say why are they in SL and we are not we are members they are just guests? Why do we have to run reserves and academies and Catalans do not??? . what are they for?[/i I suggest this will come to a head with the new TV deal when the clubs will be after Catalans being removed [i- not me -[/i the clubs whom they block from SL, the clubs who develop players when they don't.
Your "Agenda" crack is a very cheap shot and does you no favours. I have set out why I think Catalans will be under enormous pressure to step down under a new English TV deal, maybe you would do me the courtesy of reading why I think this, and replying with a sensible viewpoint.'"
You've gone from "pretty much make up the French national side" to "bolster".
Bolster, I agree with and some say that, because France are not competitive, Catalan is a failure.
I would argue that without many of their National side being in FT training and without Catalan, they would be further still down the pecking order.
Some of what you say regarding them needing to protect Catalan position, in preference to allowing their "whole squad" represent France is probably right and given some of their recent seasons, they may well have ended up even closer to the trap door of SL, had they not kept a few players back.
The stark reality for France is that, they haven't got a hope in hell of competing with England, maybe not in my lifetime but, with just one club in the top flight, how could they ?
As for the new TV deal, you may be privy to the thinking of Sky and those that run SL, I most certainly aren't.
I agree that, perhaps, Catalan should have a minimum number of local (club trained) players but, how many should this be and will similar rules apply to other clubs (in terms of club based players) or, would you set the bar lower for English clubs.
As for agenda, you do appear to be very strongly against Catalan and some of your spurious reasoning is just made up (for reasons that you are keeping to yourself).
For me, we should be thinking how the game can move forward and certainly not reversing back to being just an "M62" sport
IF and it's a huge IF, the sport needs clubs outside the "heartlands" to secure a sensible TV deal, then, there is a decision for the power brokers to make.
Either, put up the two finger sign and say, take it or leave it or, try and work to try and accommodate their needs
Certainly at it's inception, SL made great play of having a French side (Paris) and London in the comp and there were stated aims regarding attendances and facilities etc.
Attendances have declined, London have gone, come back and gone again and you want rid of The French.
Many clubs have improved their facilities dramatically (apart from Cas & Trinity). However, any plan for improving crowds etc, seemed to disappear long ago.
We had the desire to have X sell out fixtures etc but, this never happened and proved to be nothing more than words on a wish list.
There remains no long term plan for the game and we're left clutching at N. American straws for hope of salvation and without serious thought to how to establish the junior game over there, it will never succeed. For me, France is worth some more effort but, this perhaps needs to be conditional on Catalan working harder on their own production line.
As for Bradford, Leigh, Widnes and Newcastle, if they can make it to the top of the Championship, I'm sure that they will get their chance in SL, something that 3 of these clubs have had (and lost) in the not too distant past.
Also, you dont seem too concerned with some UK clubs sharing academies - why ?
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "Come on, you're just making stuff up to suit your own agenda.
.'"
Donnyman making stuff up?? Never!
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| Quote: Donnyman "Well we are off again. I am supposed to provide hard documentary evidence to back anything I say whilst everyone else on the other side of the debate can wallow in an unsubstantiated dreamland. Not only that you seem to command me to provide "evidence" then you discount that evidence before I even give you it on the basis it is supposedly lies from "biased chairmen" you show me proof they are lying?? whilst they ring their Lawyers...
Thanks for your detailed reply.
Sorry Donnyman, that's not how discussion works. The person making the claims is the one who needs back up their opinions, it's not my job to disprove everything you say. If the world worked the other way round it means I could say new york will be the most successful club ever and you would have to disprove that. Doesn't make sense, does it?
I am only trying to understand your viewpoint on what Sky want because you reference it quite often. Therefore, there must be a source that you have come across that flags Sky's preference. Unless it is just your opinion, then your guess is as good as mine, in regards to the Sky broadcast deal and the future make-up of super league.
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| Quote: The Silent H "
Then you need to keep up and listen carefully, As Axe to Grind referenced it was Adam Pearson who said we could not have too many overseas clubs in SL because SKY needed a minimum of nine English clubs clubs for showing to the fans who pay the subscriptions. I can't help it if you just dip in and out of conversations or miss actual references Then it was Ian McManus who said "Dragons are not contributing to TV revenue" in League weekly. Do you purchase and read the RL press because if you don't that's your problem.
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| Quote: The Silent H "
I'll start by saying that you need geographical spread across the competition.
The sport will not thrive if it contracts to small English towns playing in front of a few thousand people.
No sport that contracts back to it's heartlands and reduces teams is a healthy sport
'"
Who said you need geographical spread for Superleague to work?? Reference please??
How do you know the sport will contract if it's only played across the M62 it seems to have been mainly played there for 124 years?? Reference please??
Who said that RL had contracted back to it's heartlands, when was it ever more than just a northern game? Reference Please??
Your hippocracy knows no bounds, you can spout the garbage above, I can tell you what Superleague bosses are saying.
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "
1. The stark reality for France is that, they haven't got a hope in hell of competing with England, maybe not in my lifetime but, with just one club in the top flight, how could they?
2. As for the new TV deal, you may be privy to the thinking of Sky and those that run SL, I most certainly aren't.
3. You do appear to be very strongly against Catalan and some of your spurious reasoning is just made up.
'"
1. You can have half the League French but if they all field English/Aussie players they won't improve the french International side one bit will they?.
2. Your as privvy as I am to what SL bosses say about the SKY deal and the inclusion of France and Toronto in Superleague - tell me honestly do you buy and read League Express and League Weekly?
3. Reflecting that Superleague bosses have constantly said the French need to bring to the table (said to Toulouse by Lenegan reported in the RL press) home grown players and TV deals (also said to Toronto who promised to do that - Perez article in the RL press) does not make me "strongly against" anything.
Again do you buy the RL press every Monday and read up what is said by those who run the game?? I do read it all up. Maybe it's you that makes it up?
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| Quote: Donnyman "1. You can have half the League French but if they all field English/Aussie players they won't improve the french International side one bit will they?.
2. Your as privvy as I am to what SL bosses say about the SKY deal and the inclusion of France and Toronto in Superleague - tell me honestly do you buy and read League Express and League Weekly?
3. Reflecting that Superleague bosses have constantly said the French need to bring to the table (said to Toulouse by Lenegan reported in the RL press) home grown players and TV deals (also said to Toronto who promised to do that - Perez article in the RL press) does not make me "strongly against" anything.
Again do you buy the RL press every Monday and read up what is said by those who run the game?? I do read it all up. Maybe it's you that makes it up?
Wow, love to live in the black and white world that you reside in
Your anti Catalan ramblings are something not really seen on here since Cas were relegated from 11th spot.
You keep banging on about how few French players Catalan have in their squad and, despite my suggesting that there could be a tweak in the rules to try and increase this number, you still haven't given up.
You also dont seem to acknowledge any French players in the comp, who aren't currently playing for Catalan but, again, that doesn't fit your argument.
As for the RL papers, I used to take League Weekly on subscription but, no longer do and would regard myself as an "occasional" buyer of the paper - hope that's ok with you ?
You could link or regurgitate the articles if you think they are really important though
However, it may be worth remembering that, just like The Sun and The Mail, much of what they print is deliberately provocative to try and help sell their journal and may not be 100% fact.
Indeed, Sadler, I believe, is a strong believer in expansion and a big fan of the N. American experiment ??, something that I personally believe is to the detriment of the UK game.
We also have people in the game like Peacock who, whilst at Leeds, was advocating a reduction to a 10 club SL and yet, once in situ at KR, went in completely the opposite direction and started to advocate expanding SL to 14 clubs.
It's all about sorting the wheat from the chaff and quite frankly, those running the game, need to have a clear objectives for how to raise the profile and participation levels in the game and a clear sense of how to achieve this. Which, for the record, getting rid of Catalan would, see a reduction in player numbers and a reduction in the games profile.
I wish there was a silver bullet that could propel RL higher up the sporting pecking order but, there just isn't
However, unlike you, I see great merit in getting a second French club (Toulouse) into SL. However, this should not be at the expense of another UK based club, it should be in addition to (just as I believe Toronto should be, too.
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| Quote: Donnyman "
Then I don't know what your issue is if Pearson is happy with 3 overseas teams? I'd agree that in a 12 team super league, 3 overseas teams is enough.
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| Quote: Donnyman "Who said you need geographical spread for Superleague to work?? Reference please??
How do you know the sport will contract if it's only played across the M62 it seems to have been mainly played there for 124 years?? Reference please??
Who said that RL had contracted back to it's heartlands, when was it ever more than just a northern game? Reference Please??
Your hippocracy knows no bounds, you can spout the garbage above, I can tell you what Superleague bosses are saying.
I don't need to reference an opinion. Surely you can tell tell the difference between saying something as fact and opinion?
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| Quote: The Silent H "I don't need to reference an opinion. Surely you can tell tell the difference between saying something as fact and opinion?I don't know what your issue is if Pearson is happy with 3 overseas teams? I'd agree that in a 12 team super league, 3 overseas teams is enough.'"
I don't think Pearson said he was [i "happy with three overseas teams"[/i
By all means reflect the facts as reported, by all means pass an opinion that may be in line with the facts, but please don't bother wasting your and my time trying to wriggle out of the actual point. If you think Pearson is happy with Hull.v.Catalans, Hull.v.Toronto and Hull.v.New York and would not mind Hull.K.R. making way for the latter, and Hull being even further away from a return to Hull.v.Bradford fixtures...........even though 80% of his clubs fanbase prefer HKR and Bradford to overseas opposition, and he would prefer the bigger crowds Rovers and Bulls bring, then you need to think again, concede this point and move the debate forward.
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "
1. Wow, love to live in the black and white world that you reside in
Because York found a well off chairman and got a new ground........
Because Newcastle found a Millionaire chairman and started to develop new local players........
TWP have no ground and will never develop players AND unlike York and Newcastle will never sell any TV subscriptions......
So why do "some people" keep banging on and on and on and on and on and on about TWP?
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| Quote: Donnyman "1. Cut the personal stuff my friend and stick to the debate, it's not about me...... and you only start slanging matches by taking that approach.
2. There is every chance that by this time next year you will have your wish and Toulouse may well replace HKR.
Now you need to explain your comment about the games "profile" which is about "attention" from people, we can measure that by the size of the TV audiences and the size of the games attendances. You really do need to look up Hull's likely attendances for games against Catalans and Toulouse and then consider the TV audience for such games. Then you need to consider the "profile" if they were against Bradford and Hull.KR (who could go down for Toulouse) instead. Also take into account the poll of people in Hull as regards overseas expansion - 80% weren't interested. You may be but they were not??.
3. Now of course your get out is your 14 club SL - or is it? Leeds, Saints, Wire, Wigan, Cas, Huddersfied, Salford, Hull, HKR and Wakefield............. Catalans, Toulouse, New York and Toronto?
QUESTION - Is that your vision for the future? Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??
QUESTION - What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join?? Go to 17 clubs or kick three more useless English clubs out??
QUESTION - as the player pool shrinks - especially in France - where would you think they would get all the players from, for even two more clubs in SL???
Not France not North America......
I really do not think you have thought this through have you. As Mr. Perez will tell you he needs (his words) at least 5 North American clubs in SL to get a TV deal there so we will need an 18 club league if you would not relegate any more English clubs.
Take your time with considering the scenario above, and my questions of you. Try not to insult me. It's just a debate on the game we both love to pass some time....'"
Do you really believe the game should forget Bradford, Widnes, Leigh Newcastle, London and York now??
Strange question. Now we should not forget about ANY club, including the ones that you mention, although, last time I looked, there was a pathway from the Championship into SL.
If ANY of those clubs wins their GF, then , they are up - end of - although you are being mighty generous to Bradford, Newcastle and probably Widnes as I dont see these clubs challenging for promotion just yet and you seem to have omitted Fev from your list.
What do you do once Ottawa, Avignon and Vancouver make applications to join??
I think that all of the above are some way off making the league structure and some dont exist
as the player pool shrinks - especially in France
My knowledge of participation numbers in France isn't good, although I'm sure that just as in the UK and in many other sports, they will be struggling to maintain and increase participation numbers. However, in France it probably more a case of turning a greater percentage of their current youth into pro or semi pro players.
You have already stated that Catalan, in your opinion aren't doing enough and I agree.
However, with a decent pathway from the amateur game, plus a decent level of coaching, I'm sure that more players could make the grade.
I've already said that the "European" league should increase to accommodate the overseas sides that can meet the relevant criteria, although there are limits in everything and again, I 've also suggested previously that the overseas clubs MUST be committed to developing their own players. Not doing so will ultimately end in failure.
FWIW, I think that Toulouse are doing ok in this regard, probably better than your average Championship or SL club and they should be encouraged to continue doing so.
France does have a game to build on, which, just as you keep arguing that losing English clubs may be detrimental to the sport over here, surely, the same applies if we jettison Catalan and tell Toulouse to do one and drop them from The Championship ?
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| Sounds as if the Catalans games might be shown after all.
Elstone said he believes a ‘healthy amount’ of fixtures from overseas will be shown. He said
Elstone's use of the pronoun "we" suggests success is in the air. In contrast, it's very notable that in the same article he announces that the RFL is dealing with TWP's dispensation issues on behalf of SL
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