| FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > How far is too far? |
 |
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 6038 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Apr 2002 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Mar 2017 | Feb 2017 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
: |
|
| Quote: Ovavoo "Were have they said this?
Also, if that's the case, why did Duncan Ferguson get gaoled.'"
Cant remember where I read it, it was in connection with Louis Suarez second biting offense. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 12512 |  |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Sep 2002 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Oct 2021 | Oct 2021 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
2825_1368992607.jpg
If you are interested in Building Information Modelling (BIM). PM me.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_2825.jpg |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "Anything outside what one could reasonably expect as a part of RL could not have been consented to as part of the rules of the sport. Things that happen on the field arent outside the law, simply affected by it. '"
Yep, and the occasional striking incidents, including shocking incidents like that seen on Saturday are "expected" (in that they are in the sporting guidelines) but certainly not condoned. These guidelines are generally accepted by the authorities to be good enough at dealing with these matters as they comply with the tenants of English law. They are a governing body. I expect now the RFL have issued their 6 month ban that the police will drop any charges, especially as the victim has not complained, but of course we will see.
None of this suggests that the acts on the field are outside the law. Simply the way we choose to govern those laws. Any striking of another player is technically an assault, and what Flowers did was possibly even ABH, but the RFL should be the governing body to deal with it. Any suggestion that police should deal with these matters is frankly nonsense in my opinion and sets a dangerous and completely unnecessary precedent for contact sport. Boxing would be done for. Clearly where an incident went above striking to something far more serious, then it would fall over that line as to be inappropriate for a sporting governing body to deal with and to be handled as a police matter. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Chairman | 1468 |  |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jan 1970 | Jun 2022 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
: |
|
|
RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... 
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it! |
|
RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init...
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it! | |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Chairman | 1169 |  |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2017 | Dec 2015 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
1444_1283599199.jpg
Ealing here we come, onwards and downwards.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1444.jpg |
|
| Quote: knockersbumpMKII "RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... 
As for the violence, where have I made ANY complaint about 'violence' within our sport, that being the acceptable kind, go on.. crack on mcduff!
i played, I liked to give it hard, I had no qualms about smashing a halfback or a winger but I was always fair/legitimate (that's my nature) I took it back and plenty of that that wasn't fair or legit..I expected that all the same. BUT..there IS a line and when that line is strode over by a mile as in the Flower case then things should be looked at closely as to wether criminal proceedings be followed. But yeah, people like you will just let this type of incident and future ones go with just a slap on the wrist by the RFL and not do anything else about it..
Whatever 
|
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 22777 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| May 2006 | 18 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
|
| Quote: Bal "Yep, and the occasional striking incidents, including shocking incidents like that seen on Saturday are "expected" (in that they are in the sporting guidelines) but certainly not condoned. These guidelines are generally accepted by the authorities to be good enough at dealing with these matters as they comply with the tenants of English law. They are a governing body. I expect now the RFL have issued their 6 month ban that the police will drop any charges, especially as the victim has not complained, but of course we will see.
None of this suggests that the acts on the field are outside the law. Simply the way we choose to govern those laws. Any striking of another player is technically an assault, and what Flowers did was possibly even ABH, but the RFL should be the governing body to deal with it. Any suggestion that police should deal with these matters is frankly nonsense in my opinion and sets a dangerous and completely unnecessary precedent for contact sport. Boxing would be done for. Clearly where an incident went above striking to something far more serious, then it would fall over that line as to be inappropriate for a sporting governing body to deal with and to be handled as a police matter.'"
Well that is the thing. In boxing there is the expectation that you will get punched. But there are many rules and responsibilities around being granted that freedom. One of which is that the referees decisions are followed and safety is paramount. As long as those type of responsibilities are taken then boxing would be fine.
But if a boxer were to ignore a ref's instruction or were to kneel down above and unconscious opponent, that would quite possibly be dealt with by the authorities.
I dont see why people assume that if action were taken in an exceptional circumstance like this, it would be taken in run of the mill circumstances. It wouldnt. The only precedent being set would be that if you were to commit an exceptionally violent act within a sporting contest, outside of the rules of that sport, and beyond what is reasonably expected within that sport, police action would be taken.
It is actually no different to the principle you confirm, it is simply that you draw the line of 'serious' (as you term it) further along than what Flower did. |
|
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Chairman | 1169 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2017 | Dec 2015 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
1444_1283599199.jpg
Ealing here we come, onwards and downwards.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1444.jpg |
|
| Quote: knockersbumpMKII "WRONG, you need to read what the law says & understand it not come to some fanciful conclusion because you've watched Rockford files on a Sunday afternoon.. ![]()
But if you can reply in a measured manner, answer me this. If you're so keen to see Flower prosecuted, why are you not demanding the police and CPS look at the incident in it's entirety? If you want the criminal law applied on the pitch I would say Ben Flower can mount the defence of provocation from the initial assault by Lance Hohaia. An off-the-ball use of the forearm under the chin is also over the line. The lawyers can then argue over it to their hearts content. All the time with the meter running.
|
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 12512 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Sep 2002 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Oct 2021 | Oct 2021 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
2825_1368992607.jpg
If you are interested in Building Information Modelling (BIM). PM me.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_2825.jpg |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "It is actually no different to the principle you confirm, it is simply that you draw the line of 'serious' (as you term it) further along than what Flower did.'"
The RFL guidelines draw the line with the grading system. |
|
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 22777 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| May 2006 | 18 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
|
| Quote: Bal "The RFL guidelines draw the line with the grading system.'" the RFL are not a law making or law enforcement body. Had Hohaia complained, i have no doubt that police would not only be able to, but would be duty bound to progress it.
This wouldnt set a precedent. It would simply be a decision that what Flower did was bad enough. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 12512 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Sep 2002 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Oct 2021 | Oct 2021 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
2825_1368992607.jpg
If you are interested in Building Information Modelling (BIM). PM me.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_2825.jpg |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "the RFL are not a law making or law enforcement body. Had Hohaia complained, i have no doubt that police would not only be able to, but would be duty bound to progress it.
This wouldnt set a precedent. It would simply be a decision that what Flower did was bad enough.'"
They would have, yes. But he didn't so that is somewhat mute. If a player punched another player in any game and they complained to the police they would have to look at it. Its potentially common assault. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 22777 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| May 2006 | 18 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
|
| Quote: Bal "They would have, yes. But he didn't so that is somewhat mute. If a player punched another player in any game and they complained to the police they would have to look at it. Its potentially common assault.'" i dont believe they would. A punch is a well established part of the game (rightly or wrongly) and there is an expectation of its possibility. What Flower did is entirely different. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 12512 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Sep 2002 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Oct 2021 | Oct 2021 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
2825_1368992607.jpg
If you are interested in Building Information Modelling (BIM). PM me.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_2825.jpg |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "i dont believe they would. A punch is a well established part of the game (rightly or wrongly) and there is an expectation of its possibility. What Flower did is entirely different.'"
I'm not saying the complaint would get anywhere. They would take the nature of the sport, and its governing body into account and likely dismiss it. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 1923 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Apr 2009 | 15 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2019 | Jan 2019 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
44920_1327005775.png
[quote="Harrigan":1th0f7ap]Wigan are the most structured team I have ever seen in this country.[/quote:1th0f7ap]
[quote="NickyKiss":1th0f7ap]As a fan Wane makes you want to run through a brick wall so you can only imagine how he makes the players feel![/quote:1th0f7ap]
[url=http://twitter.com/#!/theegw:1th0f7ap]@TheEGW[/url:1th0f7ap]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsnX1esHN2wkEC1FxcO2TCg:1th0f7ap]YouTube Channel[/url:1th0f7ap]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_44920.png |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "i dont believe they would. A punch is a well established part of the game (rightly or wrongly) and there is an expectation of its possibility. What Flower did is entirely different.'"
A punch is a well established [itransgression[/i. That isn't the same as it being a part of the game. Either the police are duty bound to investigate a complaint where an assault has occurred or they are not. They could not, without any impropriety, investigate Flower without investigating Hohaia. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 22777 | |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| May 2006 | 18 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
//www.pngnrlbid.com
[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
|
| Quote: TheElectricGlidingWarrior "A punch is a well established [itransgression[/i. That isn't the same as it being a part of the game. Either the police are duty bound to investigate a complaint where an assault has occurred or they are not. They could not, without any impropriety, investigate Flower without investigating Hohaia.'"
Just because you have set up a false dichotomy, doesnt make it true.
The police/cps would only be bound to move forward such a complaint if a reasonable person would not expect such an offence to happen during a game. |
|
|
|
|
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 1923 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Apr 2009 | 15 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2019 | Jan 2019 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
|
| Milestone Years |
|
|
| Location |
|
| Signature |
44920_1327005775.png
[quote="Harrigan":1th0f7ap]Wigan are the most structured team I have ever seen in this country.[/quote:1th0f7ap]
[quote="NickyKiss":1th0f7ap]As a fan Wane makes you want to run through a brick wall so you can only imagine how he makes the players feel![/quote:1th0f7ap]
[url=http://twitter.com/#!/theegw:1th0f7ap]@TheEGW[/url:1th0f7ap]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsnX1esHN2wkEC1FxcO2TCg:1th0f7ap]YouTube Channel[/url:1th0f7ap]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_44920.png |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "Just because you have set up a false dichotomy, doesnt make it true.
The police/cps would only be bound to move forward such a complaint if a reasonable person would not expect such an offence to happen during a game.'"
Who told you that, and why did you believe them? There are lots of scenarios where one might reasonably expect a crime to occur but it does not relieve the police or the CPS from their duties to follow it up. The assault Flower committed occurred in the context of he himself being assaulted, albeit to a lesser degree. There is no way any investigation could turn a blind eye to that. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
