Cudjoe for Bateman as Bateman is not a centre and Gale for Williams, as Williams isn't a scum half

Way too much reliance on old favourites. Had James Graham grounded the brilliant tap through by Hodgson instead of falling on his nose and too embarressed to stand up afterwards, it may have been a different story.

That stated none of our kicks had any height on them making them too easy to take in. Williams at this level looks out of his depth (at least in that game).

If you look at where the ball went, I'd suggest it wasn't embarrassment preventing him from standing up straight after!

Agree entirely. The entire game seemed to be played on our LH side. I can understand NZ attacking there but we seemed to go that side most times we had the ball, which is bonkers when we have Watkins, possibly the most naturally talented player in the squad, wasted on the other side.

Not sure what went on on Saturday but I suspect players repeatedly taking the ball stood still, a ridiculously flat line and that when attacking you could have covered the whole team with a blanket may have been partially responsible.

Agree. & Watkins to left centre. Westwood in for Whitehead. Bateman or Farrell for other second row? Tough on Bateman after unnecessarily being asked to play out of position just because he filled in quite well when both his club's centres were injured; but Farell, just. McGillvary in for Burgess? Tough on him-but no, hope for Burgess to be given chance to shine on home ground. Two 40:20s by Gale could be the difference & Hardaker to link in between Watkins & Hall in attack.

To me this only makes sense if you are pairing Leroy with Jerry on the right...

Just feel Watkins would pose more of a threat on the left and see more ball. I'd play the usual flat line in attack out left but with a steeper attack line out right. Gale could hang back on the left and then come on fast switch play to link up with steep attacking line on the right OR Widdop has the option to hit runners on his left. We need same effort in defence in test three but with more inventiveness on attack as above (& Gale's varietous kicking game) and a bit more bite up front (Westwood). Roby to start, Hodgson on interchange.

There were that many below par performances on Saturday that you struggle to make a case for who should and who shouldn't keep a place. I don't think a single player could really take too much credit from the game.

I've heard calls for the heads of Burgess, Bateman, Williams, Whitehead etc but as a team unit it was poor across the board. I'd be tempted to go with the same side but I'd probably move a more orthodox centre in to Batemans place in Cudjoe and then decide which player from Bateman or Whitehead moves out of the 17.

To make wholesale changes would single out players when really you could make a case for dropping the vast majority.

Id take Williams out of the firing line, it isnt fair to leave him in at this stage to execute a game plan that just isnt functining. The wide range of skills a top quality half needs are so underutilised that we arent going to see much of a drop off whoever we bring in to replace him.

Bateman isnt a centre and again, he needs taking out of the firing line. Too much on the line to be fitting a square peg in a round hole just to get him some experience.

Farrell has struggled too much going forward, he has been dominated nearly every hit up, he is 25 years old now and just hasnt performed in attack. His defence has been pretty good, but his attacking performance isnt good enough to justify his shirt.

i dont agree that we have been bad across the board, i think we have been bad in places, good in some others and and average mostly. I think Widdop is in a position where he needs to show something to keep his shirt, i think Whitehead has been ok but not what was necessary, and wouldnt argue if either were to be dropped (i would only rest Williams rather than drop Widdop simply because its an awful lot of pressure to put on Williams at this stage and at the end of a tough season that ended in disappointment for him)

But i think our front row has been pretty good, our hookers are pretty good, and with the little ball they have actually had, i think Watkins and Burgess have done pretty well actually and look a good partnership. Hardaker has been solid if unspectacular, Hall has worked hard, O'loughlin had a bad first half of the first game but has been decent since, Ferres has done well.

A proper centre, a bit more dynamism and if we are dreaming perhaps even and offload or two from the 2nd row and the most important a more expansive game plan and the game is ours for the taking.

What really brings home where he have gone wrong is the lack any dynamic players in that squad as a whole. There isnt an attacking 2nd row, McGuire has been the best half in biggest games of the year and doesnt get a look in, Shenton and Percival could at least have gotten the ball to hall in a bit of space, Cuthbertson and Walmsley can break a line and get the ball away,

There are cases for dropping 95% of them after Saturday though. The one thing id say about Williams is that he's bounced back very well at Wigan when he's had some poor games and I think we'll see him do that again.

Hardaker has been very quiet but then so has the full back line and that's because they're hardly seeing any qualify ball. I've not seen one ounce of space created for Watkins/Bateman and then in turn the wingers. I don't think changing personnel will create any more space. That will be done by changing our game plan and playing with some width.

People might not like this but I think we've missed Sam Tomkins massively. As that link man from fullback he ensured the centres/wingers got quality ball and took the pressure off the halves.

We have. And we (Wigan) are going to be missing him for quite a bit longer too.

thing is Tomkins wouldnt matter, attacking wise i could play full back for us on the last two games. You could have both Billy Slater and Greg Inglis playing at full back and they are going to look pedestrian when our most adventurous play is a drop off from first receiver.

Id be fine with leaving Williams in, but there is now pressure, not only on result but performance. Our halves havent even scaled the heights of average yet this series. We have got to the stage where in his third game in a row, a decider 'good for a young half finding his feet' isnt good enough. He needs to be good without qualification or its a disappointing series at the end of a disappointing year.

The issue with Bateman is a little different, what are we getting out of shoving him in there? He isnt going to be an international centre, he isnt an international standard centre, where is the upside here? I actually wouldnt have a problem with having him as an interchange forward and sending him out there for 10 or 15 minutes and telling him to be a mongrel, get under the kiwis skin, but i dont get why we are persevering with him at centre when in the next couple of years he isnt going to be there. Lets put an actual centre there.

I think it is unlikely anyone not in the 17 for the last 3 weeks would make a difference - they must be rusty not having played since September. Furthermore, Gale, Cudjoe or McGillvary would not make a difference behind a beaten pack. It was in the forwards that England lost, yet both Whitehead and Cooper got limited game time.

As for the halves, difficult to do much given the frequency that James Graham takes the ball to the line and then passes. If Williams was allowed to do that England get several breaks, Ferres, Farrell and Whitehead would all thrive off that. The coaches need to set the tactics rather than indulge favourite players.