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| Potential, for sure. The actual - I think more could be done by the RFL to clarify for people why this will not actually be the case.
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| Quote Adeybull="Adeybull"Potential, for sure. The actual - I think more could be done by the RFL to clarify for people why this will not actually be the case.'"
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. There are many criteria for licensing applications and the Bulls were, what, a B last time? I doubt they'd be in danger of not getting a licence any time soon.
It's the RFLs problem, not the Bulls, and it's the RFLs potential conflict, not the Bulls.
Besides, the grounds for licencing decisions are pretty clear so anyone with half a brain can determine and interpret the decisions and reach their own conclusions.
But I am sure the conspiracy theorists will use the potential conflict to cite favouritism.
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Player Coach | 15521 | Wakefield Trinity |
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| Quote ROBINSON="ROBINSON"Neither.
A piece of real estate has been sold. RFL happen to have bought it. No one would give a flying one if a venture capital firm, the local council or a rich individual had bought it.'"
Correct, they wouldn't, but since what actually happened was that the governing body a) bought it and b) issued a spin-tastic press statement in an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes, people do give a flying one, and rightly so.
There is an undoubted and irrefutable conflict of interest going forward in terms of licence decisions; to deny such is stupid. There is also yet more damage done to the trust and confidence of RL fans in the RFL; to deny that is stupid. Finally, I would imagine there are a number of SL Chairmen who are incensed by this decision, and that will damage the RFL's ability to administer the game going forward.
It's a mess, a self-inflicted and easily avoidable one, but a mess nonetheless.
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International Board Member | 3525 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote Adeybull="Adeybull"No.
And the RFL are not our masters; just our landlord.
As you will probably hear from the terraces this year:
"Richard Lewis, he's OK...
he's OK, he's OK;
Richard Lewis, he's OK...
he's our landlord."
I would say that it would be highly embarrassing for the RFL if Odsal was to fail the stadium criteria; but it is highly unlikely that those criteria would have been set so that Bulls would not get a licence just because of the stadium anyway! Don' forget that Bulls were NOT one of the clubs warned about their stadium in the previous round, and they were not put on any particular warning this time. The stadium is stated as being in need of some improvement, but we start from already having over 6,000 seats and a large covered stand as well as extensive modern corporate facilities and large on-site car parks and other boxes ticked. Nothing said we were at serious risk on the stadium for next time round. Maybe the time AFTER that, I'll grant you. But a club with a B-grade licence (as we have) is should be OK next time round, all other things being equal anyway.
People seem to forget that there are loads of other criteria that are applied. If Bulls get the crowds, develop the players and perform OK on the park, (and don't go bust...) there is NO WAY they'd lose their licence, any more than any of the other SL clubs. If the Bulls fail at the first two and the last (they have conspicuously failed at the third in recent years) then they become very very vulnerable - and rightly so.
In such a situation, the worst case scenario is that the RFL surrender the long lease back to the council and maybe take a hit on the amount of the original payment that they have not recovered through rentals. But remember, the RFL have a charge on the Bulls' assets, which includes e.g. the (removable) Coral Stand, so you would expect that in any insolvency they could recover a fair bit even of that.
The way I see it, the RFL are taking an element of commercial risk that the Bulls may eventually not be in a position to pay the rent, in exchange for picking up a huge site with (despite what the naysayers would believe) very considerable future potential for the RFL.'"
The conflict of interest is wider than simply in relation to whether the ground will be treated less harshly at license application time than other stadiums.
The RFL as landlord receive rent from Bradford and have an interest in continuing to receive that income, so it is not in the RFL's interest for Bradford's income to go down (as a result of a failure to win a license, for example). Will the RFL step in to bail them out should Bradford get in financial difficulties?
The RFL also have an interest in enhancing the value of their asset, which means that Bradford may benefit directly from investment by the RFL whereas the rest of the league will at best benefit indirectly through the increased asset value. We may well see for example the RFL doing a deal with Bradford to upgrade Odsal in return for a higher rental or a share of revenue.
Not a good situation for the game as a whole, good though it may be for Bradford in isolation.
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| Quote G1="G1"Besides, the grounds for licencing decisions are pretty clear so anyone with half a brain can determine and interpret the decisions and reach their own conclusions.'"
Yes we can - Crusaders, Wakey, Cas, Widnes....
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International Star | 18000 | Wakefield Trinity |
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| Whats up with Widnes' ground ? and does Odsal have the required number of covered seats ? Same foe HKR ?
Cas & Wakey know ther are things to be done, but maybe others are unwilling to acknowledge the fact !
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| Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"Without being too partisan, I need to take issue with "they are a better run club than Wakefield". With respect your talking a load of Bull.
Yes Wakefield have had their problems, some caused by inept management, some by circumstance and some by the beloved franchise system.
However the poor management is firmly in the past, with regard to the new stadium, the club could not possibly do any more than they are doing and the franchise system is beyond their control.
ST sales are well up, average crowds last season were well up (despite the uncertainty that was present for the vast majority of last term) and they are trying to accommodat the RFL criteria despite the fact that the stadium issue will hopefully be resolved within the next 3 moths.
Wakefield and Cas are in a quite unique situation, with most of the rugby world trying to force a merger "or else" and this is the doing of the franchise system.
At least Wakefield as a club have growth in every department (apart from our league position last year) and this element will improve this time around.
Altough I've read many books on the historical beginings of our game, I certainly haven't seen a mission statement stating "one principal of the Northern Union is to make money".
I think you've been reading too much Enid Blyton.'" You say the mismanagement is in the past, but that has yet to be proved either way, and I cant think of any of the problems associated with Wakefield which you could say were down to the Franchise system. Wakefields problems existed in spite of the franchise system not because of it.
And yes, season ticket sales may be up at Wakefield but they are still much lower than Bradford, and yes average sales may be up but they are still much lower than Bradfords. Yes they are making impovements to Belle Vue but these improvements have been a long long long time coming and Belle Vue even then, wont be as good as odsal.
Quote wrencat1873Yet again we come back to the franchise system, where new clubs have tried and failed, Paris, Gateshead, Crusaders, Harlequins (i know there still breathing, but a long way from successful) ant the heartland clubs have suffered.
Expansion is a great idea, but has been ill thought out.
The game was spreading slowly, but it is the RFL's insistance to keep "planting trees in the desert" that is harming the game..'" We only come back to the franchise system because you have brought it back to the franchise system, thats the kind of circular thinking I was talking about. Wakefield as club played in Belle Vue, had masses of overseas players, poor crowds and were by any realistic measure a struggling SL club before franchising had been put in place. And if the correlation between the entrance to SL of clubs like Paris, Gateshead, Crusaders, and London proves they are responsible for the struggles of the heartland clubs doesnt it also prove they are responsible for the massive improvement which has put about 10k on Leeds attendance? the attendance increases at Warrington? St Helens? Hull FC? Wigan? Bradfords attendances are historically pretty good is that down to the expansion clubs aswell? Huddersfield? Quote wrencat1873We should have had a strong Cumbrian team by now, but the desire at the highest level is not there.
Clever people will know the reasons why, but mere mortals certainly dont.'" Nor is there the desire in cumbria, hence their struggles.
If you want to look for a conspiracy, you will find one wherever you look. If Wakefield drop out next time and you want to find a reason which doesnt blame that club, use this. But it will do no good. The fact is, Wakefield are in danger come licence time because they havent made themselves indispensable, If they do everything they have promised, if they get a new stadium, get 10k attendances, stop giving playing positions to so many overseas journeymen, give more chances to youngsters you have developed and you wont be in danger.
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| Quote TFC="TFC"As I don't have the time to pick apart the rest of your comment, I have highlighted the stupidest part.
I don't think the RFL are destroying the game, as I said before I understand their objectives but their methods are poor. The fact that the RFL would have happily handed the Crusaders a 3 year SL franchise ahead of Wakefield (and lets not pretend it would have been any other way) highlights how short sighted they are. The Crusaders were doomed to fail, when everyone said they were doomed (us 'flatcappers'
) we got loads of stick from people like you.
Special dispensation has been handed out to many clubs in the past, and whilst I understand the reasoning behind these decisions I do not agree with the principle, if you think the RFL are fair and transparent in their dealings (like letting the Crusaders into SL in the first place) then fair enough Smokey. As for the RFL being competent as an organisation, that is another story altogether!'" Some people have some very short memories of just what a state the game was in a few years ago.
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Some people have some very short memories of just what a state the game was in a few years ago.'"
And after the millions pumped in by Sky what state is it in now? We've had Crusaders and Wakey go bust whilst holding licenses. There is a question mark over Bradford's financial health. There's two clubs at least that are massively discounting their product with cheap ST offers (which is going to be bloody difficult to reverse). How many other clubs are trying to drink from a dry well? Before you jump on my back with the old straw man bollax - I realize I'm just fishing with my questions but if I was a betting man I wouldn't be afraid to slap down a few notes on the presumption that the game (SL clubs) is far from being in rude health.
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| Quote littlerich="littlerich"And after the millions pumped in by Sky what state is it in now? We've had Crusaders and Wakey go bust whilst holding licenses. There is a question mark over Bradford's financial health. There's two clubs at least that are massively discounting their product with cheap ST offers (which is going to be bloody difficult to reverse). How many other clubs are trying to drink from a dry well? Before you jump on my back with the old straw man bollax - I realize I'm just fishing with my questions but if I was a betting man I wouldn't be afraid to slap down a few notes on the presumption that the game (SL clubs) is far from being in rude health.'"
compared to where the game was 10/15 years ago? Its in massively better health
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| Phew!
Everything's alright.
Thank goodness.
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Player Coach | 15521 | Wakefield Trinity |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"You say the mismanagement is in the past, but that has yet to be proved either way, and I cant think of any of the problems associated with Wakefield which you could say were down to the Franchise system. Wakefields problems existed in spite of the franchise system not because of it.
And yes, season ticket sales may be up at Wakefield but they are still much lower than Bradford, and yes average sales may be up but they are still much lower than Bradfords. Yes they are making impovements to Belle Vue but these improvements have been a long long long time coming and Belle Vue even then, wont be as good as odsal.
We only come back to the franchise system because you have brought it back to the franchise system, thats the kind of circular thinking I was talking about. Wakefield as club played in Belle Vue, had masses of overseas players, poor crowds and were by any realistic measure a struggling SL club before franchising had been put in place. And if the correlation between the entrance to SL of clubs like Paris, Gateshead, Crusaders, and London proves they are responsible for the struggles of the heartland clubs doesnt it also prove they are responsible for the massive improvement which has put about 10k on Leeds attendance? the attendance increases at Warrington? St Helens? Hull FC? Wigan? Bradfords attendances are historically pretty good is that down to the expansion clubs aswell? Huddersfield? Nor is there the desire in cumbria, hence their struggles.
If you want to look for a conspiracy, you will find one wherever you look. If Wakefield drop out next time and you want to find a reason which doesnt blame that club, use this. But it will do no good. The fact is, Wakefield are in danger come licence time because they havent made themselves indispensable, If they do everything they have promised, if they get a new stadium, get 10k attendances, stop giving playing positions to so many overseas journeymen, give more chances to youngsters you have developed and you wont be in danger.'"
What does this have to do with Wakefield? Are the RFL buying Belle Vue?
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