the did, they played at a barely semi-pro level in front a few hundred fans, by that reckoning, they Skolars are in a heartland


and im sure when Toulouse become a success that will also have always been a heartland, and in five years when the crusaders have turned it round Wales will have always been a heartland too

I'm prepared to just about accept Toulouse as a heartland club but Leigh are a heartland club and both of them are currently equally undeserving of a Super League franchise. Them being a heartland club doesn't mean they should be gifted a franchise anymore than Leigh should.

I was always very supportive of Catalans for Super League in 2006 (rather than trying to lie I suggest you go back to posts from them and see what I wrote and you will find I have been 100% consistent in this from start to finish). I hope to see Toulouse in Super League one day, but only when they merit a spot, not as a charity as you want

They had nearer 1500 and only due to the low standard and the fact that there were 4 semi-pro Perpignan teams (til 3 merged into one who were not long after ready for SL and then there were still 2 and on big occasions both could get 5000 watch). Add the figures of the 4 clubs together and you get clear heartlands (in the way that most Championship clubs are considered heartlands)


Toulouse is borderline heartlands/not heartlands (like Sheffield) and could become more of a heartlands, but only with success. Crusaders won't be a success, it is a certainty. However, places can gradually become heartlands, no team has ever gone from completely non-heartlands to a successful SL team instantly (there had been pro RL in London 16 years before SL and then they still haven't got good crowds since, even with initial success) and none ever will.

To try to compare Paris and Catalans is pure dishonesty and lies

So why are you actively wanting to drop a club into the top from nothing then when that has also never worked?

because it does work, and has worked when done properly,

there isnt something intrinsic in certain geographical areas that makes it RL country, when the game doesnt spread its because we dont do a good job spreading it,

it will take hardwork and time, but with the right backing and preperation any club, anywhere can be successful

making Paris play in front of a few hundred for three years wont affect that, they would be better using that time to concentrate on preparing their off-the field coaching, training, scouting, youth development, marketing structures ready for an assault SL than spending three years making a token gesture to the flatcappers

i would rather the RFL said to a Paris side, you are in 2012/2015 start preparing everything for SL now than making them go through the charade of three years in the championship

St Gaudens (which is near Toulouse I'll give you, though the French Elite was better then than it is now)


Combined between them they were, roughly, which is what I said


Well they need to have one that when combined with some good imports will be good enough, for Toulouse to move up now they'd need a whole new team from top to bottom, Catalans only needed some new signings. Yes there was a reason Catalans had the best players signed, but Toulouse need to be prepared to do that to go up too, and they show no signs of it. They expected to go from a season of 7th in the Elite straight into SL which is impossible. If they's put effort into their 2007-08 season they'd probably be in SL by now. As it is they refuse to make any effort in on field terms and that makes their bid unacceptable in the same way Leigh's would be.


Totally irrelevent to how successful they are and doesn't stop the bills having to be paid so who cares?


If they don't last 3 years that is a pointless statement, if they survive then yes judge them on the 3 years. I think one more season at tops they'll survive, unless someone very rich with a plan buys them up.


They both have the same costs (more or less, slight different tax and employment laws) and they both have to pay bills and both want to go from the Championship to SL, and they both have to play to the same standard at the same sport, so the small differences you try to exaggerate are just poor quality excuses for Toulouse's disappointing performances


True but having to replace a whole squad is not the way to go. Unless they can get RU converts they'll need 90% Australians at the current rate. They need a lot of their French players good enough before it is worth considering. Catalans put a good team out the year before they joined SL and a better quality one beforehand. Refusing to make any effort on the grounds of getting a new team in SL is no excuse, you need to built a basis


They will be welcomed in good time, but I would rather see them successfully enter in 2015 or even 2018, whereas you would rather see them disastrously enter in 2012 just to rush things as you have no interest in all but the most superficial expansion. You only care about the on paper situation, I care about true grassroots expansion, which actually sets the basis for true expansion rather than your universally failed method that has killed off more expansion clubs than anything else

When has it worked?

I'm not arguing that it does or doesn't work. I agree, in the right sort of set-up it could work. But I also feel the same could be said for a club working its way through the leagues. There are different ways that have different benefits to different areas in different situations. There is no right and wrong way.

But I will say that for your point about no clubs in SL having gone from amateur to semi-pro to full time pro: every SL club that was part of the Northern Union has gone from amateur to semi-pro to full-time.

You're lying yet again. Pyrenees-Orientales has an area of 4,116 sq km and Yorkshire has one of 15718 sq km. Also Pia, Catalan XIII, St Esteve and St Cyprien were all in a small part of that 4,116 sq km around Perpignan so that is heartlands by anyone but your standards.


Anywhere the game is popular. There is no dividing line (Doncaster and Sheffield being a grey area for a start) but the game can gradually become more popular somewhere. Toulouse doesn't have to meet some arbitrary level so much as have to be able to sustain a SL team. Since you support Crusaders in SL I take it you'd rather see Toulouse having serious problems like that rather than having success in the Championship? I wouldn't, I'd rather see them do well in the Championship or even in the French Elite than collapse in SL so we have something on paper. Once Toulouse have as much a claim to join SL as Catalans had, or say Widnes have now, or even a little less due to it being a good location, then I want to see them in. Until then I'd rather have a Toulouse club than not. I care about the game at all levels, you see it as SL or nothing and thus thing a club that folds in SL is better than one that wins the Championship.


Every club made up from thin air and put in SL has folded within a season or two, every single one without fail. Clubs have slowly come through and settled at semi-pro level or come from semi-pro level to full time level and I would rather things happen sustainably than your boom bust anti-expansion policy. A little help to push teams along is a good thing, but not totally artificially doing it as that will 100% guaranteed fail every time, always has done always will do

Leigh folded as a direct result of the war and had to be reformed from scratch, most RL clubs suspended operations here and RL in France had its highpoint in the 1950s and France were a top side into the 1970s. When are people going to stop using something that happened 65 years ago as an excuse for things today? The decline of French RL from the 1970s is big and far more of an issue than ancient history. Catalans joining SL has improved the situation a lot and one day this will probably allow a 2nd French team into SL, but ancient history doesn't justify a charity to French RL, anymore than it would be ludicrous for the Guinness Premiership to put a Moscow team in based on Stalin's banning of RU.

In fact RU is much smaller than it would have been in Russia due to Stalin banning RU and RL had a very good chance to take advantage of that and failed miserably. RU work at improving the real situation and so should RL rather than making pathetic excuses for everything

nope, it was Toulouse,

UTC lost to St Gaudens the year before,

you would have thought someone like you who knows everything about french RL would have been aware of that

so individually, they had an average of a little over a thousand, and out of 7million people this makes a heartland and guaranteed success in SL?


Catalans were allowed to do that without paying any transfer fees, Toulouse havent been allowed to do this, Les Catalans had three years to prepare when SL was guaranteed at the end of it, Toulouse havent,

Les Catalans were the only pro side, on the verge of becoming fully pro and were clearly the only option for french RL players, Toulouse isnt as clear, you are expecting them to be able to afford, in the championship, to pay more for players just to win the championship, when this in itself wont benefit them at all in SL

i would rather they spend the next two years preparing for SL, using the time to train the next generation of french players, ad preparing them for SL than spending time trying to create an SL sqaud out of part-time players

no one said anything about the bills yes, i really cant wait for that disastrous entrance