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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: TFC "Because we all know that is not the case, if people want to play devils advocate just to make a point then fine, but the rest of us will carry on living in the real world. Obviously this doesn't apply to yourself as you go on to mention...
'"
But you arent living in the real world, you have made up a situation just the same as FearTheVee did you both just approached from the opposite side.
You go on to mention season tickets...

Quote: TFC "For me this is not the point (even though the Bulls are skint despite selling a bucket load of cut price season tickets). It's the fact that the RFL by doing this have now got a financial investment in Odsal, and as such Bradford Bulls, they are no longer seen as impartial. How am I supposed to believe in the franchise system and the RFL (I had little faith before) when the RFL have done a deal to help a club (not just Bradford) and leave others to their own devices.'"
You're not, your trust and that of a fair amount of other fans was lost long ago. There is a large section of the RL fanbase who seem to be genuinely convinced the RFL are intent on destroying their club and the game. You can't reason with that level of paranoia and circular thinking, it would be a dereliction of duty for the RFL to not run the game completely ignoring it. The fact is, even if Bradford were playing in a stadium identical to Belle Vue, in almost every other meaningful measure they are a better run club than Wakefield (+ others).
Some people like to pretend that the stadium part of the criteria is a cop out for the RFL to simply choose the clubs they want, they have it backwards. The stadium part of the criteria allows failing clubs to hide behind the 'big shiny stadium' argument rather than addressing the fact that the clubs in poor stadiums, arent only failing because they are in poor stadiums.
Quote: TFC "I understand the RFL objectives very well, they want a high profile league for larger TV deals and better sponsorship, more money ect. However their methods in achieving these objectives are abrupt and unfair at times, especially to the bread and butter of professional sport, the supporters and the clubs on which the Northern Union was built upon.'"

The Northern Union was built on one principle and one principle only, to make money, thats what the RFL are looking to do, and lets be honest most of the bread and butter of the sport, the clubs and supporters benefit greatly, a few, a small minority, havent.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "But you arent living in the real world, you have made up a situation just the same as FearTheVee did you both just approached from the opposite side.
You go on to mention season tickets...

You're not, your trust and that of a fair amount of other fans was lost long ago. There is a large section of the RL fanbase who seem to be genuinely convinced the RFL are intent on destroying their club and the game. You can't reason with that level of paranoia and circular thinking, it would be a dereliction of duty for the RFL to not run the game completely ignoring it. The fact is, even if Bradford were playing in a stadium identical to Belle Vue, in almost every other meaningful measure they are a better run club than Wakefield (+ others).
Some people like to pretend that the stadium part of the criteria is a cop out for the RFL to simply choose the clubs they want, they have it backwards. The stadium part of the criteria allows failing clubs to hide behind the 'big shiny stadium' argument rather than addressing the fact that the clubs in poor stadiums, arent only failing because they are in poor stadiums.
The Northern Union was built on one principle and one principle only, to make money, thats what the RFL are looking to do, and lets be honest most of the bread and butter of the sport, the clubs and supporters benefit greatly, a few, a small minority, havent.'"


Without being too partisan, I need to take issue with "they are a better run club than Wakefield". With respect your talking a load of Bull.
Yes Wakefield have had their problems, some caused by inept management, some by circumstance and some by the beloved franchise system.
However the poor management is firmly in the past, with regard to the new stadium, the club could not possibly do any more than they are doing and the franchise system is beyond their control.
ST sales are well up, average crowds last season were well up (despite the uncertainty that was present for the vast majority of last term) and they are trying to accommodat the RFL criteria despite the fact that the stadium issue will hopefully be resolved within the next 3 moths.
Wakefield and Cas are in a quite unique situation, with most of the rugby world trying to force a merger "or else" and this is the doing of the franchise system.
At least Wakefield as a club have growth in every department (apart from our league position last year) and this element will improve this time around.
Altough I've read many books on the historical beginings of our game, I certainly haven't seen a mission statement stating "one principal of the Northern Union is to make money".
I think you've been reading too much Enid Blyton.
Yet again we come back to the franchise system, where new clubs have tried and failed, Paris, Gateshead, Crusaders, Harlequins (i know there still breathing, but a long way from successful) ant the heartland clubs have suffered.
Expansion is a great idea, but has been ill thought out.
The game was spreading slowly, but it is the RFL's insistance to keep "planting trees in the desert" that is harming the game.
We should have had a strong Cumbrian team by now, but the desire at the highest level is not there.
Clever people will know the reasons why, but mere mortals certainly dont.

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[quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]IMO, Sculthorpe at his peak was better than Hanley was at his.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="nickmanator":3hoggrzp]billy boston in todays game might pinch a spot bringin the cone on and that bein kind[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="robbierotten":3hoggrzp]Imo Sam Tomkins is a very poor mans Danny Brough he is just a average player getting bigged up by the idiots who comentate on sky.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Deano G":3hoggrzp]Jonathan Davies, who is his equal in [Super League] today?[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]Wellens[/quote:3hoggrzp]:7007.jpg



Quote: SmokeyTA "There is a large section of the RL fanbase who seem to be genuinely convinced the RFL are intent on destroying their club and the game. You can't reason with that level of paranoia.'"


It's ridiculously paranoid. icon_lol.gif

It really makes me laugh when people accuse the RFL of conspiracies against their club or in favour of a rival club. As if. These people are muppets, they simply don't have the level of competence required to organise even a very small conspiracy. The muddle they've got themselves in on this Bradford deal says it all. Evil geniuses they ain't! icon_lol.gif

They're so inept that if the RFL did set out to destroy the game, it would probably go from strength to strength!! icon_lol.gif

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Destroying my club, no, never really thought that but I do think the people running the RFL couldn't organise a up in a brewery.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "You're not, your trust and that of a fair amount of other fans was lost long ago. There is a large section of the RL fanbase who seem to be genuinely convinced the RFL are intent on destroying their club and the game. '"


As I don't have the time to pick apart the rest of your comment, I have highlighted the stupidest part.

I don't think the RFL are destroying the game, as I said before I understand their objectives but their methods are poor. The fact that the RFL would have happily handed the Crusaders a 3 year SL franchise ahead of Wakefield (and lets not pretend it would have been any other way) highlights how short sighted they are. The Crusaders were doomed to fail, when everyone said they were doomed (us 'flatcappers' icon_rolleyes.gif ) we got loads of stick from people like you.

Special dispensation has been handed out to many clubs in the past, and whilst I understand the reasoning behind these decisions I do not agree with the principle, if you think the RFL are fair and transparent in their dealings (like letting the Crusaders into SL in the first place) then fair enough Smokey. As for the RFL being competent as an organisation, that is another story altogether!

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Anyway, back to the thread.
Now we've all had chance to "compare notes", Bailout or Investment ?

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Seems to depend on whether you are a bitter Wakey fan, unable to get their head round the fact that their chairman sold THEIR stadium to developers, so it was lost to the club and the game, whereas ours sold OURS to the RFL.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Anyway, back to the thread.
Now we've all had chance to "compare notes", Bailout or Investment ?'"


Neither.

A piece of real estate has been sold. RFL happen to have bought it. No one would give a flying one if a venture capital firm, the local council or a rich individual had bought it.

And if they have the money, who cares who the buyer is, so long as everyone's all right?

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Quote: Adeybull "Seems to depend on whether you are a bitter Wakey fan, unable to get their head round the fact that their chairman sold THEIR stadium to developers, so it was lost to the club and the game, whereas ours sold OURS to the RFL.'"


Adey, whilst you have admirably endeavoured to explain the situation regarding the purchase of the lease, you are now reverting to comparisons that are irrelevant.

I don’t care the RFL has bought Bradford’s lease, I don’t care how much they’ve paid for it. Nor do I care why they’ve done it.

However, with regards to future licence’s, would you not agree that Bradford are now gold plated with the RFL as their masters?

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Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Adey, whilst you have admirably endeavoured to explain the situation regarding the purchase of the lease, you are now reverting to comparisons that are irrelevant.

I don’t care the RFL has bought Bradford’s lease, I don’t care how much they’ve paid for it. Nor do I care why they’ve done it.

However, with regards to future licence’s, would you not agree that Bradford are now gold plated with the RFL as their masters?'"


No.

And the RFL are not our masters; just our landlord.

As you will probably hear from the terraces this year:

"Richard Lewis, he's OK...
he's OK, he's OK;
Richard Lewis, he's OK...
he's our landlord."

I would say that it would be highly embarrassing for the RFL if Odsal was to fail the stadium criteria; but it is highly unlikely that those criteria would have been set so that Bulls would not get a licence just because of the stadium anyway! Don' forget that Bulls were NOT one of the clubs warned about their stadium in the previous round, and they were not put on any particular warning this time. The stadium is stated as being in need of some improvement, but we start from already having over 6,000 seats and a large covered stand as well as extensive modern corporate facilities and large on-site car parks and other boxes ticked. Nothing said we were at serious risk on the stadium for next time round. Maybe the time AFTER that, I'll grant you. But a club with a B-grade licence (as we have) is should be OK next time round, all other things being equal anyway.

People seem to forget that there are loads of other criteria that are applied. If Bulls get the crowds, develop the players and perform OK on the park, (and don't go bust...) there is NO WAY they'd lose their licence, any more than any of the other SL clubs. If the Bulls fail at the first two and the last (they have conspicuously failed at the third in recent years) then they become very very vulnerable - and rightly so.

In such a situation, the worst case scenario is that the RFL surrender the long lease back to the council and maybe take a hit on the amount of the original payment that they have not recovered through rentals. But remember, the RFL have a charge on the Bulls' assets, which includes e.g. the (removable) Coral Stand, so you would expect that in any insolvency they could recover a fair bit even of that.

The way I see it, the RFL are taking an element of commercial risk that the Bulls may eventually not be in a position to pay the rent, in exchange for picking up a huge site with (despite what the naysayers would believe) very considerable future potential for the RFL.

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[quote:1pqtnbtj]Every player in our squad could probably earn more money with another club. But they prefer to sacrifice a few extra quid in their back pocket to share special memories. And playing at a place like Old Trafford on a night like this makes it all worthwhile.[/quote:1pqtnbtj] Kevin Sinfield:982.jpg



This does create the potential for a conflict of interests on the RFLs part when licence applications are considered. There's no denying that.

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Potential, for sure. The actual - I think more could be done by the RFL to clarify for people why this will not actually be the case.

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[quote:1pqtnbtj]Every player in our squad could probably earn more money with another club. But they prefer to sacrifice a few extra quid in their back pocket to share special memories. And playing at a place like Old Trafford on a night like this makes it all worthwhile.[/quote:1pqtnbtj] Kevin Sinfield:982.jpg



Quote: Adeybull "Potential, for sure. The actual - I think more could be done by the RFL to clarify for people why this will not actually be the case.'"

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. There are many criteria for licensing applications and the Bulls were, what, a B last time? I doubt they'd be in danger of not getting a licence any time soon.

It's the RFLs problem, not the Bulls, and it's the RFLs potential conflict, not the Bulls.

Besides, the grounds for licencing decisions are pretty clear so anyone with half a brain can determine and interpret the decisions and reach their own conclusions.

But I am sure the conspiracy theorists will use the potential conflict to cite favouritism.

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Quote: ROBINSON "Neither.

A piece of real estate has been sold. RFL happen to have bought it. No one would give a flying one if a venture capital firm, the local council or a rich individual had bought it.'"


Correct, they wouldn't, but since what actually happened was that the governing body a) bought it and b) issued a spin-tastic press statement in an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes, people do give a flying one, and rightly so.

There is an undoubted and irrefutable conflict of interest going forward in terms of licence decisions; to deny such is stupid. There is also yet more damage done to the trust and confidence of RL fans in the RFL; to deny that is stupid. Finally, I would imagine there are a number of SL Chairmen who are incensed by this decision, and that will damage the RFL's ability to administer the game going forward.

It's a mess, a self-inflicted and easily avoidable one, but a mess nonetheless.

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[quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]IMO, Sculthorpe at his peak was better than Hanley was at his.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="nickmanator":3hoggrzp]billy boston in todays game might pinch a spot bringin the cone on and that bein kind[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="robbierotten":3hoggrzp]Imo Sam Tomkins is a very poor mans Danny Brough he is just a average player getting bigged up by the idiots who comentate on sky.[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Deano G":3hoggrzp]Jonathan Davies, who is his equal in [Super League] today?[/quote:3hoggrzp] [quote="Badwanger":3hoggrzp]Wellens[/quote:3hoggrzp]:7007.jpg



Quote: Adeybull "No.

And the RFL are not our masters; just our landlord.

As you will probably hear from the terraces this year

The conflict of interest is wider than simply in relation to whether the ground will be treated less harshly at license application time than other stadiums.

The RFL as landlord receive rent from Bradford and have an interest in continuing to receive that income, so it is not in the RFL's interest for Bradford's income to go down (as a result of a failure to win a license, for example). Will the RFL step in to bail them out should Bradford get in financial difficulties?

The RFL also have an interest in enhancing the value of their asset, which means that Bradford may benefit directly from investment by the RFL whereas the rest of the league will at best benefit indirectly through the increased asset value. We may well see for example the RFL doing a deal with Bradford to upgrade Odsal in return for a higher rental or a share of revenue.

Not a good situation for the game as a whole, good though it may be for Bradford in isolation.

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Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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